Aug 02

Arctic monkeys

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126 comments

Alexander

August 3, 2007 at 7:13 am (UTC 0)

Dear Edward,

You are damn right sometimes. Don’t expect nice behavior. But also don’t expect aggression from Russia. The things like this expedition will repeat. Russia needs acts like this to let people understand, that they are united nation with common aims. And that’s not bad, really. Such a behavior is just a reaction to the ambitions of USA government to rule the world. Be nicer and others will be nicer.

Sincerely yours,
Alexander (28 years old; St-Petersburg; Russia).

P.S.

Sometimes I doubt your professionalism. You take some real facts about Russia in your articles, and write them down in such a way, that I think sometimes I live not in Russia .
Calm down Edward. Why are you so angry at the world? Go fishing. It helps to relax.

And sorry for my English
Flasher T

August 3, 2007 at 9:59 am (UTC 0)

“The Czechs and Slovaks never quarrelled seriously about the divided villages on their (previously unimportant) border.”

…and unimportant again, of course, since 2004. The new ten are about to get Schengen coverage, then CZ and SK are only one Euro coin away from being functionally the same country.
Giustino

August 3, 2007 at 10:03 am (UTC 0)

But the floor of the sea beneath the North Pole is ancient Russian land. A Russian fishing vessel perhaps once sunk there, during Ivan the Terrible’s regime ensuring Russia’s claim for all time …
So?

August 3, 2007 at 11:44 am (UTC 0)

Dumb russkies after more wasteland. Yaawwnn….
Henrik

August 3, 2007 at 1:09 pm (UTC 0)

you might want to google “shtokman gas field” to educate yourself on the possible contents of wastelands ..
So?

August 3, 2007 at 1:56 pm (UTC 0)

There is nothing there, just ice. Move along now.
mihnea

August 3, 2007 at 2:41 pm (UTC 0)

As I’m sure you know, Romania’s problems with Moldova stem from Moldova’s duplicitous nature as Voronin attempts to play off the West against Russia and vice-versa for favors.
TErr

August 3, 2007 at 4:11 pm (UTC 0)

Certainly no one should rely on the Kremlin wanting to behave nicely, as it mostly did in the Yeltsin era.

- No, we will not behave nicely, and will protect our interests whatever little doggies bark (no reference to people posted above).

Russia will move on and become a great power. And we will go after more wastelands while others have nothing else to do then to masutrbate on Hitlers’ protrait (no referense to persons above).
TErr

August 3, 2007 at 5:25 pm (UTC 0)

And to prevent any speculations about the nature of the arctic expedition I’ll give some comments for those who can only see what they like.

It’s no flag-planting. The mission itself does not signify that Russia claims the shelf. It’s purpose is to gather the evidence to present in to UNO comission in 2009.

“I think this expedition will supply additional scientific evidence for our aspirations,” Lavrov said in televised remarks. He added that the issue of which nation what portion of the polar region “will be resolved in strict compliance with international law.”

AND the “Mirs” established a direct communication link from the seabed to the International Space Station!!!
Rein Kuresoo

August 3, 2007 at 7:50 pm (UTC 0)

Cabrero,
You definitely seem to have some sense of humor (masturbating on Hitlers portrait (saying Heil Hitler with your very penis)) may look a great joke to you, but unfortunately it is quite an old joke – and probably you found it in your scriptbook, as well as other smart things you have submitted here, like (under previous blog entry) It is certainly sad that no one asked Estonians opinion in 1939 and 1944, but that was how policy was made in that time. It was not up to small countries to decide global things. This is the exact wording used by Volodja Putin in a press conference in may 2005, when answering the questions of Estonian journalist Astrid Kannel.

Russia will move on and become a great power.
It is simply unbelievable, that we have this kind of communication exercise with quite some like-minded people trying hard to convince you that you are wrong. Like men trying to talk to the dolphine.

You have very different semantics, and totally different value system – you can’t make most of the readers of Edward Lucas’ blog believe anything else, than that you are just another Internet Comissar, hired by Kremlin.
Giustino

August 3, 2007 at 8:05 pm (UTC 0)

Russia will probably fail in the end because they don’t have a democracy. There is no means for ‘changing horses’ when things get bad, like in 1917, like in 1991, et cetera.

The Russia will be a great power bit is interesting though. I keep hearing this ‘be great’ line as if they aren’t already the largest country on Earth.

Everyone keeps thinking the next ‘Third Reich’ but it reminds me more of Mussolini. He also wanted Italy to be great, but he wasn’t quite sure how. I get similar vibes from Russia. They want to be great, but how?

For Estonians, being ‘great’ is winning an olympic medal in cross country skiing or developing a cool new software program.

But for Russia, historically, ‘greatness’ meant killing a lot of people and parking troops on foreign soil — as recently as 1989 they held half of Germany.

Let’s hope they attempt more of the Estonian path to greatness this next time around, than the path blazed by Russia in the past.

As I said before, I don’t think this will happen, sadly. In Estonia, you have the option to elect someone else if your leadership fails. But who can you elect in Russia? Yabloko?

Maybe one day.
TErr

August 3, 2007 at 9:42 pm (UTC 0)

2 Agu-Enrik Ubailves

Amigo, as I clearly stated I didn’t mean any particular persons on this thread. I refered to histerical rusuphobic hitler admirers who exist in some countries. Strange that it touched you, for I hope you are not one of them…

“It is certainly sad that no one asked Estonians opinion in 1939 and 1944, but that was how policy was made in that time. It was not up to small countries to decide global things.”

- you think it was not like that and Estonia could really deside smth.? I described the reality of that epoch, nothing more, and for …rd time affirm, that it was not good and I disapprove it.

2 Giustino

But for Russia, historically, ‘greatness’ meant killing a lot of people and parking troops on foreign soil — as recently as 1989 they held half of Germany.

- this is a wrong Cold War stereoptype people like Edward Lucas try to impose. It is wrong. We will welcome Estonia to the 2014 winter Olimpics and congratulate it with any achievements.
TErr

August 4, 2007 at 2:01 am (UTC 0)

2 All Russia-ofended Estonians

I guess it would be curious for you to read different point of view on the Russia-Baltic problems.

It’s in russian, so I hope you’ll understand it.

http://www.rpmonitor.ru/ru/detail_m.php?ID=3749
Colleen

August 4, 2007 at 4:30 am (UTC 0)

As a non-Russian I see Russia’s greatness differently than the Estonian Giuastino.

Here are some great things I associate with Russia:

- First and foremost it has a history of defeating empires that have tried to conquer Europe. To defeat these empires it has had to valiantly sacrifice itself.

- It is very multicultural, with Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist communities thriving pretty much side-by-side. I can’t recall the figure off-hand but the amount of indigenous groups present in Russia is astounding and the fact that most local traditions are strong is a testament to Russia’s multicultural society.

- A few days after 9/11 Pres. Bush said something to the effect: “Don’t let the terrorists win… teach them what America is about… go out and SHOP!” Related to this is the atrophy of society/morality. The news in the U.S. is very much dominated by “entertainment news” – what celebrities are up to, etc. My point is that Russian society is more spiritual and moral.

- Technologically its a powerhouse. Of course we have its groundbreaking space exploration, but I’m also convinced that Russia will lead the way with nuclear fusion, nanotechnology, and deep space exploration. Russian computer programmers are considered the best in the world (the popular saying is: “If you need simple programming work done, give it to India. If you want complicated and serious tasks done, give it to China. But if you want to solve an unsolvable task, give it to the Russians”).

- Culturally, Russians are among the world’s greatest writers, poets, dancers, and musicians. Of course, Russia is also great athletically and has dominated many sports.

The list goes on and on of course and there’s no need to mention natural resources because they are but a gift of the earth.

Giustino, you sound so bitter. No offense, but just try to live your life and pretend that Russia’s just not there if you hate it so much. Or, otherwise, just try to to move forward and not live in the past if that’s your problem because if everyone lived in the past everyone would be bitter of everyone! Instead, we see Russia and Germany making economic pacts, Greece and Turkey signing a pipeline deal, and France and England speaking to one another in pretty good terms. Russia has had, in my opinion, the greatest injustices and crimes against humanity committed against it, but it holds nothing of no one. It is very much living in the present and for the future, unlike yourself. Again no offense.
Rein Kuresoo

August 4, 2007 at 7:54 am (UTC 0)

Colleen,
First, Giustino is not an Estonian – he is American like You. But living in Estonia, he sees Russia from very near distance.
Nobody doubts that Russia has been great and in some ways still is. Nobody doubts that it has had a great culture and has talented persons today.
Nobody doubts it is rich in natural resources.
Now, Russia has been a superpower and it wants very much to restore its position. Ant this is a very sensitive moment in history. Its time to watch very carefully, which methods are used to achieve bigger power and influence. Are the changes done in a democratic way? Is the press free? Who gets the control over the resources? is there revanchism involved ? is it becoming more nationalistic and xenophobic? does it use dirty tricks? And so on. These are all very simple questions. Try answering these and you will become really worried.
Giustino

August 4, 2007 at 10:36 am (UTC 0)

I am not Estonian. I am an American of Italian descent. As someone familiar with Italy, I can tell you that in the 1920s Benito Mussolini’s fascist government was immensely popular.

I have seen the photos of school children wearing their brown sashes to show their loyalty to Italy. Mussolini also wanted Italy to be great. But in the end they strung his body up in public for all to see.

That is what happens to autocrats. That is why democracy is always preferable to other forms of government, like ‘sovereign democracy’.

The reason I worry about Russia not having a real democracy, and thus see failure in its future, is because I know that democracies can make crucial adjustments to buoy society in times of duress. The UK went from Chamberlain to Churchill to Attlee without skipping a beat, and survived the second world war because they had a democratic government. Is Russia as flexible today? The answer is no.

As someone that lives in Estonia, Russia’s cultural strength is not of great interest. Estonia is a Lutheran, nordic country, a place where Ingmar Bergman’s films or Aki Karismaki’s work hit closer to home that something coming out of Moscow. Our orientation, our mental location, is nordic.

Russia mostly matters in the zone of security. And when you have your ambassador harrassed by a fascist youth group, or photos of your foreign minister — who is a 33 year old guy with two kids and about as normal and European as you can get — set up with a Nazi mustache at a Nashi youth camp, you worry.

In Finland they have a statue to Mannerheim in downtown Helsinki who fought alongside Hitler in Operation Barbarossa, upon a horse facing east. Not a peep out of Moscow on that one. That’s why we worry. It’s not the actual content of the controversy. It’s the context.

Estonians have a right to worry about another Russian army (like in 1710, like in 1940) coming to rape and pillage and murder. It’s gone on for centuries. Why wouldn’t they be anxious? Wouldn’t you be?
Colleen

August 4, 2007 at 2:56 pm (UTC 0)

To the two comments above I obviously disagree and I think that you are obsessed with paranoia of Russia. I think Putin’s Russia has been a remarkable welcome for Russia and the world and it is far more democratic than the corporate-controlled American fascist state, but if there’s no convincing you there’s no convincing you. So be it.
Colleen

August 4, 2007 at 3:30 pm (UTC 0)

p.s. PACE Chairman Rene van der Linden: “I have repeatedly criticized the Baltic states for their attitude toward the Russian national minorities.” “There were widespread feelings of dissatisfaction in Europe over the Estonian government’s conduct in this situation”

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/07/3E2185CF-D3D6-4683-AD55-7B372DA1448C.html
http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372343
Giustino

August 4, 2007 at 4:07 pm (UTC 0)

To the two comments above I obviously disagree and I think that you are obsessed with paranoia of Russia.

What part of my comment do you disagree with? I made a joke about Russian land claims and I am told that I ‘hate Russia.’

Then, piece by piece, I said 1) I am not Estonian, but of Italian descent, and that the ‘Russia will be great’ reminds me of Mussolini’s Italy, the true fascist country;
2) Democracies are stronger than oligarchies or autocracies; 3)Estonia is concerned about developments in Russia primarily for security concerns; and 4) Estonians have every right to concerned about their security having recently spent 50 years under Soviet military occupation, a time when Estonians needed a visa to visit islands in their own occupied country.

So I don’t really see what you disagree with. As for Rene Van Der Linden, he can say what he wants. If you read the Amnesty Report and the OSCE Report neither of them criticizes most of Estonian language policy as they can’t because it is similar to most other European countries.

The constitution of France, like the constitution of Estonia, sets out that ‘the language of France is French’ — Basques and Bretons beware!

But I digress, he can say what he wants and we can talk about it. Estonia is a democracy. In democracies the people get to change the laws. People can make recommendations and so forth and there will be a debate.

You don’t need a mysterious ‘Kremlin backroom deal’ to find out who the next leader will be. There’ll actually be an election!!!

Like in New York, we had Mayor Dinkins, but he stunk, and we got a new mayor — Rudolph Giuliani. You can think of him what you may, but the people chose him. That’s democracy. So who are you rooting for in next year’s presidential election, Colleen? Who are you hoping the Kremlin will select to succeed Putin?

As an aside, this history nonsense is going on everywhere right now as post-war school children assume office. In Spain, Poland, Japan. They are all fighting about who did what to whom. It’s not just Estonia and Russia.
Colleen

August 4, 2007 at 4:50 pm (UTC 0)

Once again you sound bitter and upset:
- that Putin is so genuinely popular
- and that Putin is such an effective leader for all of Russia.

And, yes, if you wanted Russia to disintegrate and weaken [and continue to subsidize Eastern Europe] you would justifiably be upset.

But, Putin’s popularity is legitimate. Russians are as free as ever. Stability and prosperity is spreading continuously. And, believe it or not, Russia is standing up to American hegemony and recreating a multipolar world, where events are more balanced. All this while having 30 co-official languages in various regions!

Sure, say that Russia is not a democracy and vilify it all you want but in the end of the day you sound somewhat bitter, jealous, and paranoid.
Giustino

August 4, 2007 at 7:34 pm (UTC 0)

Once again you sound bitter and upset:

I sound worried, because I live here and every time it seems Russia grows in power, people here die. I hope this recent turn proves me wrong. The historical track record ain’t so great. The Nashists having their summer camp with a picture of Estonian leaders with a sign reading ‘know your enemy’ isn’t encouraging.

that Putin is so genuinely popular
- and that Putin is such an effective leader for all of Russia.

Do you realize how creepy you sound? I don’t want an ‘effective, popular’ leader. In a democracy the leader should be a public servant who rules at the request of the people.

Like I said, Mussolini was popular too.

And, yes, if you wanted Russia to disintegrate and weaken [and continue to subsidize Eastern Europe] you would justifiably be upset.

I am not that worried about Russian developments because the nordic economy has managed to function quite well over the last 50+ years and Estonia is part of that economy.

But, Putin’s popularity is legitimate. Russians are as free as ever.

What a great statement. A country where most media is owned by the government isn’t that free. If all the TV news channels told me that Putin was great, I might believe them too. And if I was an independent journalist? Like Anna Politkovskaja? What then?

You wonder why a British journalist isn’t too keen on Russia, where the journalists are killed, and their killers never found.

Stability and prosperity is spreading continuously. And, believe it or not, Russia is standing up to American hegemony and recreating a multipolar world, where events are more balanced.

How were they not before? I have heard this ‘protecting our interests crap’ before, but Yeltsin certainly ‘protected’ Russia’s interests in Chechnya and South Ossetia in the 1990s. They fought conflicts there. Today they just ban wines and deport Georgian kids. Sounds like they are going soft.

Sure, say that Russia is not a democracy and vilify it all you want but in the end of the day you sound somewhat bitter, jealous, and paranoid.

I am paranoid because I am aware of history. I am not jealous because I like where I live and things here are pretty good. I am not vilifying Russia, I am — again — saying that democracies are strong and oligarchies are weak. And that’s why I don’t think Russia will do as well as you would like it to. Because one party rule usually leads to stagnation (see Mexico, USSR, Brazil during the pre-Lula years et cetera). If the gears aren’t there for democratic change, undemocratic change becomes inevitable. That threatens domestic stability.
TErr

August 4, 2007 at 8:37 pm (UTC 0)

Thank you Colleen, it’s really encouraging…

2 Giustino

I actually missed that initial note that you are an American.

Then how can you pretend that your opinion on Russian issues is right when you live in an information environment generally negative and anti-russian, when you have news mostly coming from one, anti-russian, side, when you have no access to russian media. People that surround you are of your age 27, right? They were 10, when the USSR still existed and were raised with constant critics and accusations of Russia all around. You first spend a couple days watching Russian news, then say whether they are propagandistic or not. You just can not be “objective” as we say. Whatever you state about what is going on in Russia is as correct as whatever I would say about USA 30 years ago, living in USSR under soviet propaganda.

Besides that, when you accuse smbd. in smth., you have to possess a reliable evidential base and be aware of the real motives of “crime”.

Like an example with Politcovskaya. You assume, that she was killed as part of some freedom of word suppression policy, right? And deaths of 12 journalists from the CPJ list is a sequential chain of that policy?
http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2005/russia_murders/russia_murders.html

Ok… Lets investigate…

For every crime there should be a motive. There were and there is NO motive for Putin to get rid of those journalists. That’s general nature of Russian authority that no Watergate can ever happen – good it or bad that’s other subject. In Russia it’s practically impossible that a provincial newsmaker, or a person like Politkovskaya, can somehow jeopardize president’s position. By the way even in USSR dissidents were mostly sent to madhouses or deportated, but not killed.
You can certainly accuse Putin in having weak control over local authorities, corruption and criminalization, poorely working police and e.t.c. But don’t forget – that heritage, a very seek country, Vova got in 1999. And the factors that caused those deaths are continuation of the previous anarchy period.

And now let’s check the list (I’ll skip names, only give order numbers from the “12” list):
1 – July 16, 2000, …after reporting on oil industry corruption
2 – July 26, 2000, …alleged corruption in the deputy governor’s office
3- September 21, 2000, …human rights abuses in Chechnya
4- October 3, 2000, …local political scene
5- November 21, 2000, cameraman
6- September 18, 2001, criticized local officials
7- March 9, 2002, investigating the struggle for control of a metallurgical plant
8- April 29, 2002, no data, but surely, local deals
9- April 18, 2003, critical reporting on several influential politicians
10 – July 9, 2004, exposed the workings of the country’s shadowy billionaire tycoons
11 – June 28, 2005, criticized the Dagestan opposition
12 – October 7, 2006, investigative reports on human rights…in Chechnya

Only Politckovskaya directly criticized Kremlin, but by the time she was killed she got way out of Putin’s attention (if she really was in).
We can discuss Litvinenko , but I doubt that we find any motive

And besides that, I assure you that an oppressive system, lead by Putin, so worried about shutting up opposition, will use murder as a last media for it brings too much attention.

I personally feel really sorry about those people, but connecting their deaths to Putins strategy is the same thing as “black helicopters” (if you know what I’m talking about).

So things dont’ look the same from different sides and when you look deeper.

Also I want you to know, that I am no friend to Soviet ideology, I do stand for democracy, personal freedoms, free market and stuff and I dont like the leading russian party “United Russia”… Also I am not an Internet Comissar.

P.S. “For Estonians, being ‘great’ is winning an olympic medal in cross country skiing or developing a cool new software program”
- Sorry to disappoint you dude… We do win gold medals from time to time in cross-country skiing and make cool software.
TErr

August 4, 2007 at 9:50 pm (UTC 0)

To strenghthen the examle about journ.

As a typical example, several of the journalists were from the city of Togliatti, where the key automotive factory is located. In 90�s it became extremely criminalized, because the local mafia took control of car and car parts sales busyness (Berezovsky also got a la-a-rge chunk of it). The local authorities got corrupted. How things are there now I don�t know for sure, certainly better, but in 1999, when Putin became a pr.minister, it was worse than Chicago in 1930�s. It�s no surprise that a reporter got killed for touching a sensitive LOCAL topic.

Is Putin personally responsible for that and other similar cases, should he bear guilt for not taking personal control over each local corruption and political assassination case, is that your point?

We can certainly discuss that matter too � how much personal responsibility a president in a country like Russia (taking in consideration all the factors) should take, what priorities to have, and what is the margin for him being �good� or �evil�.
TErr

August 5, 2007 at 4:43 am (UTC 0)

And read this below. I do not give credits to the author. His words just repeat in better english what I think.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=24987
Giustino

August 5, 2007 at 6:49 am (UTC 0)

Then how can you pretend that your opinion on Russian issues is right when you live in an information environment generally negative and anti-russian, when you have news mostly coming from one, anti-russian, side, when you have no access to russian media.

That’s a good criticism. But I don’t read Russian and it’s going to stay that way for a long time. Italian is on my list after Estonian. So I will have to subsist on English, Estonian, and your odd Scandinavian piece (I can read some Swedish).

People that surround you are of your age 27, right? They were 10, when the USSR still existed and were raised with constant critics and accusations of Russia all around.

That’s right, I was 10 years old when the Berlin wall was taken down. It was a pretty inspiring time to be a pre-adolescent.

I had a lot of friends who had families in the captive nations. It was nice to see that they could finally go and visit their relatives without a nightmarish visa process to assess their threat to the communist state.

One great photo in my wife’s photo album is from that time. They are all on a boat to Saaremaa. Only years prior they would have needed a visa to visit an island in their own country. Freedom does exist.

You first spend a couple days watching Russian news, then say whether they are propagandistic or not. You just can not be “objective” as we say.

I read most of the ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti and Kommersant pieces that are translated. Occasionally there is a hint of analysis. Mostly it’s just repeating the foreign ministry line. KLike did you know that all Russian speakers in Estonia are oppressed. The ones I know that are really successful don’t count. They are oppressed, I am sure they just must not know it.

Like an example with Politcovskaya. You assume, that she was killed as part of some freedom of word suppression policy, right?

See, you assume I am making arguments I am not based on your previous experience with ‘Russophobes.’

The reality is that I am not making the ‘Putin killed Anna’ argument because, like you said, I don’t have any evidence.

But I do know that if I was a journalist, I wouldn’t want to work in Russia for fear of being killed by somebody.

And I am pretty sure that if I was as ‘unimportant’ as Politkovskaja, my killers would never be caught.

We can discuss Litvinenko , but I doubt that we find any motive

No one will ever find the people that killed him either. Isn’t it wonderful?

Sorry to disappoint you dude… We do win gold medals from time to time in cross-country skiing and make cool software.

So do the Estonians, which is why Estonia is ‘great’ — although the idea of ‘seeking greatness’ for greatness’ sake seems a bit silly.
Rein Kuresoo

August 5, 2007 at 11:09 am (UTC 0)

Cabrero:
I follow russian media on a regular basis, it is like an adrenaline dependency. You can decide about how adequate picture of an event you will get by an example of Estonian bronze meddling:
*First, Estonia was and is continuously depicted as a nazi and apartheid state (which is totally ridiculous – if any of the “facts” given by the russian media were true, some influential European states, who suffered from the nazis most (eg. France), would consider immediate sanctions).
* Bronze soldier was cut into pieces (RTV, Itar-TASS) – even poor Russian MPs believed this, which made their visit to Estonia utterly ridiculous.
* Russian “hero” Dimitri Ganin was killed by a)Estonian police (or police car), b)Estonian doctors, c) skinheads. This statement was launched by most major information channels. (Investigation is still going on, so far its clear that looter Ganin was attacked and beaten by the clients of the looted “Tavistock” pub)
* Old German TV reporter was beaten (to the head) in the D-terminal until he went bleeding. (ITAR-TASS- 28. apr.)
* Estonian MP Nikolai Maspanov saw, how police killed one protester, another was later killed in the terminal D. (Same source) Altogether Estonian police practiced unbelievable violence towards “innocent” protesters, including children, elderly people and even foreigners.
* In many Estonian schools russian pupils were forced to read the article about Estonian occupation. After that the education officials told to the pupil, that they are the descendants of the occupants. In Lasnamäe school, children had to repeat: “I am a child of the occupant.” (Gazeta. ru. 01.05)
Now, these are just few examples that came into my mind, I have not collected them specially.
If I believed this crap I would hate Estonia too. But russians get all their information from these sources.
Even russian dissident Valeria Novodvorskaya, who has many times tried to protect Estonia in this dispute, repeats sometimes amazing lies from Russian media.
TErr

August 5, 2007 at 4:46 pm (UTC 0)

Dear Giustino,

my purpuse is not to convince you that in Russia everything is OK and perfect, for it is not, but to show you that Russia’s image is many times exposed in a wrong and and incorrect way. I just dont want you and others to accept my country as some ready-to-be totalitary stalin-like state.

Journalists and Politcovskaya was a topic speculated by western media to expose some gov. anti-free press policy. I hope that you saw that it is not.

We are now going through the period most western countries gone through within decades in order to become developed politically balanced states. We obviously have sharp topics, mainly related with money, dangerous for journalists. But journalism is a dangerous profession.

“What a great statement. A country where most media is owned by the government isn’t that free. If all the TV news channels told me that Putin was great, I might believe them too. And if I was an independent journalist? Like Anna Politkovskaja? What then?”

“The reality is that I am not making the ‘Putin killed Anna’ ”

- seems quiet contradictory

“See, you assume I am making arguments I am not based on your previous experience with ‘Russophobes.’ “

- I didn’t argue with you much on the current situation. I disapprove the way many russians were treated all the time before. You just can’t get my point that estonian authorities could’ve made a compromise with russians who moved in from, lets say, 60 to 80′s and give them full citizenship and establish language restrictions stage-by-stage. I’m shure, most people would appreciate that and learn language.

2 Agu-Enrik Ubailves

What you said about the riot events is partially true. But things you exposed were mainly traps any media would fall in during such events. They get news from wherever they can state smth and then deny themselves right away. This was with about statue cut\not cut.

As for Dmitry, honestly, I dont keep track on that case. But if you provide me with any recent reference stating or trying to convince public that he was killed by the police we can discuss it.

The same is with the school case. I’ll try to find the article and see, what was used as a source of that information and then find out whether it was an interview or some propagandistic fact manipulation.

Good that you brought example with Novodvorskaya. She is an indicator that maybe our media are not that wrong.

As for police brutality, it would be interesting to know your opinion on that

http://www.dni.ru/news/incidents/2007/5/4/106128.html

Even if you beleive the police official declaration (not there, but I read it) that he was found alrteady beaten, then why he was not delivered to the hospital and the Embassy was not contacted as soon as possible.
rusak

August 5, 2007 at 11:39 pm (UTC 0)

*First, Estonia was and is continuously depicted as a nazi and apartheid state (which is totally ridiculous – if any of the “facts” given by the russian media were true, some influential European states, who suffered from the nazis most (eg. France), would consider immediate sanctions).

I would say Estonia has been depicted as more of a “Nazi-sympathizing” state rather than a “Nazi” state, but anyway… Regarding apartheid, there is no need to even exaggerate anything, the facts speak for themselves, it is effectively an apartheid state. You don’t need to have formal apartheid laws, the international community would frown on that, and there are ways around that. You can’t “explain away” the lack of ethnic Russians in prominent government positions. There is pervasive systemic and societal discrimination. Feel free to face facts.

* Bronze soldier was cut into pieces (RTV, Itar-TASS) – even poor Russian MPs believed this, which made their visit to Estonia utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, that was pretty despicable in my view, but it was practically invited by the Estonian authorities who chose to move the statue like thieves in the night instead of doing it openly and publicly, which would have prevented any such speculation. And I honestly think this was poor journalistic standards rather than deliberate lying because I haven’t see this repeated and it would have been really stupid to set themselves up like that if it could be so easily disproved. As far as lies and distortions go, however, this wouldn’t be any worse than Estonian officials and media (and defenders of the Good Ests in the West) pretty much openly accused the Russian government of waging “internet warfare” against poor little Estonia, without any evidence of course. The experts do not support these claims.

The entire situation around the relocation of the statue was ridiculous. First Estonian leaders and politicians say that the statue represents occupation, oppression etc. They say that Soviet soldiers were occupiers, bandits, marauders, drunkards etc. That’s why the statue must be moved, right. Then they go place a wreath and rebury the soldiers with military honors. What the hell was that? They did that for the West to see. The Est establishment was basically saying: “Aha, see, we’re not so bad after all!” Ok, so how about a Russian in the cabinet of ministers? “NOOOOOOO!!!!!!”

* Russian “hero” Dimitri Ganin was killed by a)Estonian police (or police car), b)Estonian doctors, c) skinheads. This statement was launched by most major information channels. (Investigation is still going on, so far its clear that looter Ganin was attacked and beaten by the clients of the looted “Tavistock” pub)

Yeah, and the wonderful Estonian media immediately proclaimed, without any evidence as usual, that Ganin was killed by “fellow looters”. And the Est public went along with it like good little sheep, I remember how they were proudly repeating this online. The Estonian media actually tried to use the murder of Dmitry Ganin to further smear the rioters, and by extension the entire Russian minority. Where are your complaints about that?

* Old German TV reporter was beaten (to the head) in the D-terminal until he went bleeding. (ITAR-TASS- 28. apr.)

Some innocent bystanders were in fact hurt.

* Estonian MP Nikolai Maspanov saw, how police killed one protester, another was later killed in the terminal D. (Same source) Altogether Estonian police practiced unbelievable violence towards “innocent” protesters, including children, elderly people and even foreigners.

If he said that, then they would have just quoted him.

As far Estonian police, understand this already, we are not going to approve of your apartheid state police beating up our young people under any circumstances. Understand that and keep it moving.

* In many Estonian schools russian pupils were forced to read the article about Estonian occupation. After that the education officials told to the pupil, that they are the descendants of the occupants. In Lasnamäe school, children had to repeat: “I am a child of the occupant.” (Gazeta. ru. 01.05)

They quote some “parent” about this but it very clearly says “Официального подтверждения этой информации пока нет.” — “There is no official confirmation of this information as of yet.”
TErr

August 6, 2007 at 3:03 am (UTC 0)

2 Agu

Actually there is no need for russian propaganda to work hard in order to discredit Estonia, for your own authorities were constantly raising tension, supporting it’s negative image in Russia. And it has been done by:

- constant blaming of Russia in “occupation” and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

- ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it’s forcefull assimilation

- mocking on subjects “holly” for us. That’s quiet an example
http://lenta.ru/news/2007/04/24/grave/

- demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.
Giustino

August 6, 2007 at 4:08 am (UTC 0)

to Cabrero

I just dont want you and others to accept my country as some ready-to-be totalitary stalin-like state.

Who can really tell these things. I see photos of life in 1940, it wasn’t that different. They had telephones and planes and trains and automobiles. They too perhaps thought that they were living at the end of history. Then Hitler signed a pact with Molotov, and several weeks later the war began.

Journalists and Politcovskaya was a topic speculated by western media to expose some gov. anti-free press policy. I hope that you saw that it is not.

Believe it or not, I don’t have a huge interest in Russian politics or domestic events. I say this because many Americans do — they are Russophiles — they study Russian, they know the difference between Sergei Shoigu and Sergei Yastrzhembsky, they wax poetic about Russian ‘greatness’.

All I can say about Politkovskaja is that she was a well-known journalist who was shot in the head. I don’t believe her killers will ever be brought to justice.

But journalism is a dangerous profession.

Journalists expect they might be hurt in places like Iraq. But when guys like Paul Klebnikov get shot dead late at night walking down the street, one has to reorient their view of Russia.

If we see Russia as a one-party, Asian superstate (like China) — then these kinds of things ‘make sense.’ If you try to see it as a European democracy, then these are obvious reasons for concern.

You just can’t get my point that estonian authorities could’ve made a compromise with russians who moved in from, lets say, 60 to 80′s and give them full citizenship and establish language restrictions stage-by-stage.

That would have been called the ‘general amnesty of 1992′. It didn’t happen. The rightwing parties aren’t ‘amnesty’ kinds of people.

I’m shure, most people would appreciate that and learn language.

I am not sure.

to Rusak

Regarding apartheid, there is no need to even exaggerate anything, the facts speak for themselves, it is effectively an apartheid state.

If Estonian was an apartheid state, Russians would need special passes to visit Estonian towns and wouldn’t be allowed to intermarry with Estonians. There’s only been one ‘apartheid’ state (apartheid is an Afrikaans word, afterall).

You don’t need to have formal apartheid laws, the international community would frown on that, and there are ways around that. You can’t “explain away” the lack of ethnic Russians in prominent government positions.

Your measure of what makes an apartheid state is how many government positions are held by ethnic Russians?

In Germany, 19 percent of the population is foreign born. Yet not one of Merkel’s 15 ministers is a minority.

In this year’s Riigikogu there are at least eight (out of 101) members that are ethnic Russians. 15 percent of citizens (in 2006) spoke Russian as their first language.

But here’s another case of inequality in Estonia. Estonia is 55 percent female, yet only 22 Riigikogu seats are held by women. I guess Estonia must not only be an apartheid state, but also a patriarchy where women are systematically denied representation. Wouldn’t you agree?

Yeah, that was pretty despicable in my view, but it was practically invited by the Estonian authorities who chose to move the statue like thieves in the night instead of doing it openly and publicly, which would have prevented any such speculation.

It wasn’t exactly the government’s fault their police were assaulted with rocks and bottled for hours on end, resulting in broken limbs and various other injuries.

But look at how ridiculous this whole situation is. This is a statue we are talking about. The government moved a statue and it resulted in two nights of looting and untold injuries. That’s disturbing.

The entire situation around the relocation of the statue was ridiculous.

Agreed.

First Estonian leaders and politicians say that the statue represents occupation, oppression etc.

It does to many people of the less likely to break windows and throw rocks at police variety.

They say that Soviet soldiers were occupiers, bandits, marauders, drunkards etc.

They were in many cases. Don’t ask me, ask all the aging rape victims residing in Estonia.

That’s why the statue must be moved, right.

Wrong. History is full of terrible things. The reason they had to move it — and failed quite miserably to make clear — is that there were 13 people buried under a sidewalk in a place where nationalists of all varieties came to stir up society.

Since they moved it, nobody has vandalized the Bronze Soldier. Had it stayed there, people would still be dumping red paint on it every fortnight.

Then they go place a wreath and rebury the soldiers with military honors. What the hell was that? They did that for the West to see.

Estonia is part of the West. So far all their plans have been carried out as previously announced. Idiotic politicking aside — the intention was always to move the whole thing to a military cemetery. What do you think they were going to do with the bodies? Dump them in the River Narva?

The Est establishment was basically saying: “Aha, see, we’re not so bad after all!” Ok, so how about a Russian in the cabinet of ministers? “NOOOOOOO!!!!!!”

You are the only one making such demands, Rusak. There is no political party in Estonia saying, ‘hey, can’t we have the finance ministry?’

The ethnic-Russian dominated Constitution Party (which got one percent of the vote) is the descendant of the Estonian United People’s Party which once had 6 seats in the Riigikogu in 1999-2003. But they are basically a dead party now, even while erthnic Russians grow in proportion of the electorate.

Why? Most ethnic Russians, as previously discussed vote for the Center Party or for the Reform Party. Neither of them has advocated any kind of quota system based on ethnicity for Estonia’s cabinet.

You also should understand that a) Russians in Estonia are located in two places — Tallinn and parts of Ida-Virumaa — and that many of Estonia’s political parties are ‘based’ elsewhere.

Reform Party is ‘based’ out of Tartu. Isn’t it interesting that in Andrus Ansip’s cabinet are Tõnis Lukas (elected in Tartu), Justice Minister Rein Lang (born in Tartu), Defence Minister Jaak Aaviksoo (born in Tartu), and Minister of Culture Laine Jänes (former Tartu mayor).

The Social Democrats, on the other hand, have a stronger showing in the rural and island counties. Hence you have Finance Minsiter Ivari Padar (from Võrumaa), Population Affairs Minister Urve Palo (from Haapsalu), and Internal Affairs Minister Jüri Pihl (from Saaremaa).

So far there hasn’t been an Ida-Virumaa bloc emerging in Estonian politics, maybe only through Keskerakond. I not sure though that if they won the election they might consider affirmative action for Estonian minsitries.

The Estonian media actually tried to use the murder of Dmitry Ganin to further smear the rioters, and by extension the entire Russian minority. Where are your complaints about that?

Actually a good chunk of the rioters were ethnic Estonians. I think that everybody hated them after they went apeshit and looted stores, set cars on fire, and basically acted like assholes.

I am glad I wasn’t living in Tallinn at the time. If my little kids were woken up by the sound of marauding drunken youth chanting ‘CCCP Forever’ and throwing rocks I would have been extremely pissed off. I am impressed with the extent that the Estonian police (many of them also ethnic Russians) held their cool. If that had happened in Los Angeles (as it did
in 1992) things would have gone down far worse.

Some innocent bystanders were in fact hurt.

At the WTO Protests in Seattle in 1999 my friends were sprayed with rubber bullets for doing nothing. I wonder how many people were hurt at the G8 Summit protests this year. Protests are crazy. It’s not like a ride that you can get on and off of. If the police say ‘move’ — move.

As far Estonian police, understand this already, we are not going to approve of your apartheid state police beating up our young people under any circumstances.

At what point did Estonian citizens become ‘your young people’? How are you treating my ‘American compatriots’ in Moscow? Are you forcing them to learn your language? Do you insist that they communicate with local officials in Russian. Shame on you!
Giustino

August 6, 2007 at 4:38 am (UTC 0)

- constant blaming of Russia in “occupation” and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

In Estonia, both are viewed as actors hostile to the Estonian state because they were.

The fact that the Soviet Union authorized the murder or imprisonment (and subsequent death) of all pre-war heads of state (save Konstantin Päts, lucky enough to die in a psychiatric hospital in 1956, and August Rei, who continued the government in exile) means that no one here will ever feel good about the Soviet Union.

You just don’t murder all of a countries founding fathers and expect people to ‘let it go’. If America invaded Russia tomorrow, deported Putin to Alaska, and then proceeded to execute every leader from Dmitri Medvedev to Sergei Lavrov, you’d remember it for a very long time.

ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it’s forcefull assimilation

There is no policy of ‘forceful ‘assimilation’. The policy is called ‘integration’. Estonian society existed before 1991. To play an active role in Estonian society, one must have a knowledge of Estonian language.

See your criticism is contraditory. You want Russians to have greater representation in government. That would mean that more Russian-speakers would be able to participate in the Estonian discourse in the Estonian language. And when the state tries to create that situation where young people are fluent in Estonian, you criticize that too.

So what’s it going to be? Unemployment and political impotence or school reform? Pick one.

mocking on subjects “holly” for us. That’s quiet an example
http://lenta.ru/news/2007/04/24/grave/

Ansip isn’t the only jerk in office on the Eurasian continent. I mean the Russians withdrew their signature from the border treaty just because it referenced documents referring to the Soviet occupation. Get over it — the USSR took over this country the same way Hitler took Denmark and The Netherlands. Estonians don’t want more land. They don’t even want an apology. They just want an acknowledgement of historical reality.

demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.

But if Red Army veterans — responsible for war crimes as mentioned — are permitted to gather wearing their uniforms, then how exactly are Estonian SS veterans different?

I don’t think the state should ‘pick sides’ although many interpret the 20th SS as being conscripted to ‘keep the Soviets out’ in order to reestablish the republic.

The official line — that should be adhered to, no matter what Isamaa-Res Publica Liit argues — is that both should be seen as movements or actors hostile to the Estonian republic.
Rein Kuresoo

August 6, 2007 at 10:07 am (UTC 0)

Gentelmen, I have some other business to do and have to leave your company for now. I just leave you a set of ineteresting concepts for consideration:
Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Belief
Appeal to Common Practice
Appeal to Consequences of a Belief
Appeal to Emotion
Appeal to Fear
Appeal to Flattery
Appeal to Novelty
Appeal to Pity
Appeal to Popularity
Appeal to Ridicule
Appeal to Spite
Appeal to Tradition
Bandwagon
Begging the Question
Biased Sample
Burden of Proof
Circumstantial Ad Hominem
Composition
Confusing Cause and Effect
Division
False Dilemma
Gambler’s Fallacy
Genetic Fallacy
Guilt By Association
Hasty Generalization
Ignoring A Common Cause
Middle Ground
Misleading Vividness
Personal Attack
Poisoning the Well
Post Hoc
Questionable Cause
Red Herring
Relativist Fallacy
Slippery Slope
Special Pleading
Spotlight
Straw Man
Two Wrongs Make A Right
TErr

August 6, 2007 at 3:01 pm (UTC 0)

2 Giustino

All you said about journalist’s issues is right. And this does not contradict with what I said – things in Russia are far from perfect. And we don’t pretend to be a European-type democracy, though neither we are a chinese-like state. I just don’t tolerate attemts to demonize us.

Your comments on Tallin riot issues are right too, but the sad thing is that similar events in Moscow were presented as “democracy opression”, though it was a defense of public order and prevention of what happened in Tallin or in globalists-suffered cities. Double standards…

“In Estonia, both are viewed as actors hostile to the Estonian state because they were”

- that’s a wrong-wrong thing. It said that this concept is constantly popularized in Estonian society. Under Germany estonian’s fate was to become a nation of swineherds and servants, with no autonomy and later no nation at all. Indidsputible fact is that we finally conserved their national identity, intelectual and economic potential. The history of Russia (USSR) Estonia-relations can not be focused exclusively on Stalin and repressions. The only wrong was that we gave estonians no choise. With Stalin’s death ended his era. It’s no good to pose us as occupants exlusively and ignore all the positive we did to Estonia. Why dont’ they acknowledge the good, then we’ll consider it fair to acknowledge the bad.

“I mean the Russians withdrew their signature from the border treaty just because it referenced documents referring to the Soviet occupation. Get over it…”

- refering to what I said above, it’s Estonia, who has to get over it and stop living in the past. Give me a break, it was a technical treaty, we shouldnt’ve let it be politicized.

“But if Red Army veterans — responsible for war crimes as mentioned — are permitted to gather wearing their uniforms, then how exactly are Estonian SS veterans different?”

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here. By puting on it’s uniform you sign pact with Satan. As for Red Army, maybe some single particular people should bear guilt, if it is proved, but in general it is a liberator of Europe and deserves eternal gratitude of people. And yours too, for you grandfarther (if he fought) had to do it only from aug44 to may45.

I admit that SS veterans have right to gather, but officials have no moral right to praise them and call them “freedom fighters”.
Giustino

August 6, 2007 at 4:29 pm (UTC 0)

that’s a wrong-wrong thing. It said that this concept is constantly popularized in Estonian society.

No, it’s true. The NKVD killed most of Estonia’s pre-war leaders. That’s Satan right there. Those orders came from Moscow.

Indidsputible fact is that we finally conserved their national identity, intelectual and economic potential.

1) You worked to destroy national identity by a) banning national flag, b) prohibiting singing of national anthem, c) making Russian language co-official and the language of all official activity, d) prohibiting open discussion of Estonia’s pre-war republic, e) mass population transfer.

2) Those Estonian intellectuals that were not killed or imprisoned in 1940 were forced to flee to live in Stockholm as refugees. When a new generation was allowed to regenerate, free of Stalinist rule, they worked tirelessly for independence again.

3) Economic potential? Have you seen Estonia? Now go to Finland and Sweden. Estonia is one of the poorest countries in Europe while its closest neighbors are among the richest. That’s communism right there.

The history of Russia (USSR) Estonia-relations can not be focused exclusively on Stalin and repressions. The only wrong was that we gave estonians no choise.

I am sorry, you are lying to yourself. I know its a source of great pride for you, but you are wrong. There’s no justification for murdering thousands of innocent people just to ‘save’ them from some possible future death.

There is no logic in ‘we had to deport your grandmother’ to save you from Hitler. I am sure the Nazis had similar logic. ‘We have to occupy Denmark to save it from Britain.’

The word ‘repressions’ doesn’t sum it up. People that are ‘repressed’ usually have rights taken from them. People that are killed by secret police because they own a bank or a farm or fought in the War of Independence or because they are related to them are not ‘repressed’, they are murdered.

refering to what I said above, it’s Estonia, who has to get over it and stop living in the past. Give me a break, it was a technical treaty, we shouldnt’ve let it be politicized.

It wasn’t politicized. It had an internal preamble to amend a previously agreed upon border.

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here.

The NKVD is a criminal organization. Estonia has successfully prosecuted NKVD personnel for war crimes and had those convinctions upheld in European courts. If you load children into cattle cars sending them to possible death, you’re a war criminal. I mean our first president since restoration of independence here was one of those kids. How many classmates did he lose?

As for Red Army, maybe some single particular people should bear guilt, if it is proved, but in general it is a liberator of Europe and deserves eternal gratitude of people.

The Soviets and the Nazis started the war by dividing up Europe in 1939. They attempted to reverse Brest Litovsk and Versailles. The Soviets got their empire back, but in the end, 1918 has proved a longer lasting settlement.

And yours too, for you grandfarther (if he fought) had to do it only from aug44 to may45.

My grandfathers did not fight in World War II.

I admit that SS veterans have right to gather, but officials have no moral right to praise them and call them “freedom fighters”.

I agree. As I said, both movements were hostile to the Republic of Estonia. Both governments killed thousands of Estonian citizens. Both should be viewed here as equally criminal.
Giustino

August 6, 2007 at 5:05 pm (UTC 0)

Cabrero,

Look, I am getting a bit sick and tired of talking about World War II. It ended 34 years before my birth and it’s been over for a long time.

For Russians, it’s a great source of pride — they defended their territory from a foreign invasion. They also defeated one of the most evil villains of history who cowardly took his own life rather than face justice.

For Estonians, though, it’s a source of shame. They were invaded by both sides and barely fought back — usually in foreign uniforms of Finland (like the Erna group) or Germany. Their founding fathers were put down like dogs. Their poets huddled into boats and fled, hoping that the Atlantic Charter would restore their independence. Their young men, deserted by the world, hid in the forests rather than submit to foreign rule.

That’s why I wish the Estonian government would stop talking about 1944 and keep talking about 1918. In 1918, the Estonian troops repulsed both German and Russian attacks and won their independence.

That’s something that needs to be talked about. And I have to say that Estonia’s true independence holidays commemorating those victories here are far more joyous, positive, happy, progressive.

On February 24 students here wear their fraternity/sorority caps and unfurl the sinine-must-valge. All of this world war II crap — deportations, death camps, mass executions, unmarked graves. It’s just awful. It’s a nice indicator of how low humanity can go, but it’s not exactly chicken soup for the national soul.

So yeah, 1918. It rules. My grandma was born in 1918 and she is still alive. MAdolph Joffe and the Bolshevist diplomats of that time understood — more than Russia’s current elite — how stupid it was to fight wars against Estonians and Finns. They made the right choice then. I wish the Russian side too could commemorate that just decision to let Estonia go.
TErr

August 6, 2007 at 7:18 pm (UTC 0)

1) You worked to destroy national identity by a) banning national flag, b) prohibiting singing of national anthem, c) making Russian language co-official and the language of all official activity, d) prohibiting open discussion of Estonia’s pre-war republic, e) mass population transfer.

- this is not what forms national identity, these are mainly governmental attributes. We kept estonians within their national borders, picked their local iders among estonians, put no obstacles to promote their culture and language. So in 1991 it was a matter of reelecting leaders and changing flags.

2) Economic potential? Have you seen Estonia? Now go to Finland and Sweden. Estonia is one of the poorest countries in Europe while its closest neighbors are among the richest. That’s communism right there.

- it was not different before communism. Lower or higher, but they have their ports, roads, factories and educated people and it was given to them with no compromise.

3) Soviet Army is not NKVD. All the examples of deportations you brought have nothing to do with armed forces. They came to Estonia to fight nazi and their collaborators, the fought and died heroically, so estonians should respect this and not rewrite history. I repeat, soviet soldriers, who came there in 1944 did come to invade and persecute, dont’ mix up Stalins regime and NKVD with warheroes. Those who died from germant bullet should be respected.

However, yes, you convinced me, that we were occupants an supressors, and brought nothing but grieve to poor Estonia. Now I am waiting for Ansip and all of the Estonian politians born before, lets say, 1970 to renounce.

“Born in Tartu, Ansip graduated from the University of Tartu with a degree in Chemistry in 1979. He worked as engineer in Tartu State University in 1979-1983 (with 2-ears break for mandatory military service). He was Instructor of Industry Department and Head of Organisational Department of Tartu District Committee of Estonian Communist Party in 1986-1988”

- he is a fucking collaborator. He not only received education and money from the occupational bloody regime, served to strengthen it’s economy and science, he also served its evil Communist party. Besides that, his educational certificates are illegal, for illegal was SU and it’s authorities in Estonia. How can he pretend to make executive desicions, for he didnt officially graduate a hughschool?!!!

It seems like the president is the only descent person.

Or maybe Estonia should stop that stupid anti-russian speculation about “occupation”, “stalin” and leave dead soldiers alone an get a life?

“I wish the Russian side too could commemorate that just decision to let Estonia go.”

- we already let it go. If there was some disappointment about that it ended in 93-94. So it’s them who shoul stop cheap bargaining and show respect to the neighbour.
Giustino

August 6, 2007 at 8:45 pm (UTC 0)

Or maybe Estonia should stop that stupid anti-russian speculation about “occupation”, “stalin” and leave dead soldiers alone an get a life?

It’s just part of our history here, no more, no less. It’s part of every family’s history. Both of my wife’s great grandfathers fought in 1918. Because of this they were both sent to Perm by the Soviet government after the country was occupied. Not only them, but their children. Their property? Confiscated.

These stories form the fabric of recent Estonian genealogy. Dead uncles. Dead aunts. The question of “what happened to him?” could very definitely carry the answer “he was killed by the Soviets.” It was the cause of sorrow for a lot of people.

This is not your fault, nor Putin’s fault, nor Russia’s fault. The men behind this nightmare — Zhdanov, Beria — are long dead. But it does frighten me that Nashi youth groups are wholly unaware of this. It’s important to know your history. And what kind of country has an official youth group anyway? And its webpage is .su for Soviet Union? Just what we need. Not.

Anyway, as most would agree, World War II is a sad chapter in human history. In Estonian history it is especially sad because the country lost its independence for 50 years. But that is over, and I think after this Bronze Soldier crap, people are finally done with it. I hope they are.

I actually think World War II is a bit of a mental disease. Have you noticed how every ‘bad guy’ in the world these days is ‘the next Hitler’. As if they weren’t bad of their own accord. Bush, Putin, Ansip — they’ve all been compared to Hitler. It’s like World War II is a lobotomy for the masses that stops them from thinking critically, plays on their fears and emotions, and readies them to confront ‘the next Hitler.’ It’s mostly crap though. How does it really impact my day to day life? Very little.

For Estonia, 1918 is more important than 1945. In February in Estonia people eat vastlapäevakoogid and go sleigh riding. It’s an all around positive feeling experience. Next year they will hold the Independence Day ball in Pärnu, where independence was declared 90 years ago. I am looking forward to it.
TErr

August 7, 2007 at 12:56 am (UTC 0)

Finally we got to smth. we’re both agree with.

Stalin did a lot of damage to Russia either. My mothers family was deported from central Russia to Siberia and then scattered. So I have no relatives from my moms side.

But unfortunately Estonian authorires dont want distinct Stalin, post-stalin USSR, Soviet people, Russia and Putin. They ignore good, speculate in the bad, though most of them, like Ansip, are products of the same system as we are.

I afraid Bronze soldier became a logical result of their policy. The crap won’t stop, and people will remember.

Well,

it was nice arguing with you,

take care
Ray D. Noper

August 7, 2007 at 3:27 pm (UTC 0)

- demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.

About honoring soldiers who fought in SS uniform – Nuremberg Trials specifically exempted Baltic Waffen-SS conscripts from charges (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/09-30-46.htm), on the grounds that they were drafted and had no personal choice about that.
Now, why should these people be less honored than those who fought in Red Army ?
There is no tolerance for nazism. Please, give ONE proof for that there is.

- constant blaming of Russia in “occupation” and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

Russia have not given clear signals, whether it is a successor of Soviet Union or not. If it is, the question of occupation stays, if not, why not clearly say that and stop whining about “destruction of the mightiest of mighty SU”.

- mocking on subjects “holly” for us.
Now, we want to rise a statue for those who died in mass deportations on Red Square. Can we, please ? No, the official stance that a) there was no occupation, and b) the were no genocide in SU mocks subjects holy to every thinkig Easter European.
And, oh, it’s also very symbolical you put quotes around “holy” in context of “holy for you”, also the typo making it mean ‘happy, joyful’…

- ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it’s forcefull assimilation
Interest of Russian diaspora are not ignored. Interests of Russia that are projected through few members of Russian diaspora are. Also, noone is assimilated forcefully. Illegal immigrants from the time of Soviet Union are allowed to naturalize. Naturalized citizens are allowed to vote, to become almost any official position (I have to check about Presidential chair, though; I kinda remember that you had to had Estonian citizenship by birth for that). De jure, they have born to either a nonexistant and illegal country or predecessor of Russia (see the second point), in which case Russia should deal with “stateless persons” who really are their citizens.
AndresS

August 7, 2007 at 4:49 pm (UTC 0)

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here. By puting on it’s uniform you sign pact with Satan.

This is true for the SS in general but does not apply to the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian).

In the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as part of a criminal organisation, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised.

The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)#_note-JWL
TErr

August 7, 2007 at 5:33 pm (UTC 0)

Let’s go step-by-step

About SS legions. I can only give you referenses on info in russian. The material there give referenses to german archives and Nurnberg statements.

http://rigaxx.narod.ru/0011.html

http://www.respublika.ru/docs/dip/66/6569.html
AndresS

August 7, 2007 at 5:47 pm (UTC 0)

Wikipedia references the Jewish Virtual Library regarding the 20th SS .

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.html
Ray D. Noper

August 7, 2007 at 6:15 pm (UTC 0)

cabrero, I posted the link to THE PROTOCOL of Nuremberg Trials, not some propagandist references. Take note and think.
TErr

August 7, 2007 at 7:39 pm (UTC 0)

Ok, I admit that my statement, that only by belonging to SS a person was a criminal, was wrong. The exception are conscripts, who were forcibly mobilized.

You can label any Russian-origin historical facts or documents referred as a “propaganda”. If it is so, there is no sense to continue the dispute. However, I don’t have other sources, but they seem credible for me, for soviets got a hold of german archives and give no restrictions on access to most of them.

So, you say that your old fellas were “forcibly mobilized”?

In the wikipedia their division is called “Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade” – Freiwilligen means volunteer I guess. In the thread I gave you it says it was called this way till may 44. Also it says that this “forcibly mobilized” actively participated in operations outside Estonia, demonstrating extreme violence to civilians.

Still, I didn’t get if read Russian. Here it quotes Nurnberg protocol.

Преступность организации СС в целом была признана Нюрнбергским Международным военным трибуналом, который постановил, что “СС использовалась для целей, которые согласно Уставу являются преступными и включают преследование и истребление евреев, зверства и убийства в концентрационных лагерях, эксцессы, совершавшиеся при управлении оккупированными территориями, проведении в жизнь программы использования рабского труда, жестокое обращение с военнопленными и их убийства. Рассматривая вопрос об СС, Трибунал включает сюда всех лиц, которые были официально приняты в члены СС, включая членов “общих СС”, войск СС (“Ваффен-СС”), соединений СС “Мертвая голова” и членов любого рода полицейских служб, которые были членами СС”… “Трибунал объявляет преступной согласно определению Устава группу, состоящую из лиц, которые были официально приняты в члены СС, были членами этой организации или оставались ее членами, зная, что эта организация используется для совершения действий, определяемых преступными в соответствии со статьей 6 Устава. Преступная деятельность была широко известна членам организации для того, чтобы оправдать признание СС преступной организацией”. Более того, Трибунал установил, что “из статьи 10 Устава явствует, что решение о признании преступного характера обвиняемой организации является окончательным и не может подвергаться оспариванию на любом последующем процессе по делу отдельных членов организаций”. И, как ясно следует из приговора, эстонский легион СС также признан преступным, т.к. Трибунал включил в СС членов “Ваффен-СС” и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что “невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности”. Отдельно Трибунал “отметил” деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что “дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…” Нюрнбергский процесс. Сборник документов в 8 томах., т.8. Москва, Юридическая литература, 1997 г., с.652
Rein Kuresoo

August 7, 2007 at 8:16 pm (UTC 0)

Yes, go on, find this passage:
исключая, однако, тех лиц, которые были призваны в данную организацию государственными органами, причем таким образом, что они не имели права выбора, а также тех лиц, которые не совершали подобных преступлений.
TErr

August 7, 2007 at 9:11 pm (UTC 0)

И, как ясно следует из приговора, эстонский легион СС также признан преступным, т.к. Трибунал включил в СС членов “Ваффен-СС” и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что “невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности”. Отдельно Трибунал “отметил” деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что “дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…”

So this makes Estonian SS legion a full part of SS and a criminal organization.

I guess those who were

призваны в данную организацию государственными органами, причем таким образом, что они не имели права выбора, а также…не совершали подобных преступлений.

And who were in the same time not involved in

преследование и истребление евреев, зверства и убийства в концентрационных лагерях, эксцессы, совершавшиеся при управлении оккупированными территориями, проведении в жизнь программы использования рабского труда, жестокое обращение с военнопленными и их убийства.

- counted quiet a small number.

So, I guess that is the only category of SS legion sodiers your government honours, right?
TErr

August 8, 2007 at 2:50 am (UTC 0)

2 Andres and Ray D
In case if you don’t read the language of occupants and sincerely believe that 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Estnische Nr. 1) appeared from nowhere formed by conscripts forcibly dragged into it. I’ll compile it’s glorious history from the links you provided.
Himmler was allowed to create his new formations, but they were to be commanded by German officers and NCOs. Beginning in 1942-43, several new formations were formed from Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and even Bosnians. The Reichsführer had sidestepped the race laws by ordering that Waffen-SS units formed with men from non-Aryan backgrounds were to be designated division der SS (or Division of the SS) rather than SS Division. The wearing of the SS runes on the collar was forbidden, with several of these formations wearing a national insignia instead.
Towards the end of 1943, it became apparent that numbers of volunteer recruits were inadequate to meet the needs of the German military, so conscription was introduced. The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation, which proved to be outstanding soldiers with an unblemished record.

The Waffen-SS also maintained several “Foreign Legions” made up of personnel from conquered territories and countries allied to Germany. The majority of such personnel wore distinctive a national collar patch and preceded their SS rank titles with the prefix Waffen instead of SS. The racial restrictions were relaxed for these soldiers to the extent that Ukrainian Slavs, Albanians from Kosovo, and Turkic Tatars’ units were recruited. The latter units also sometimes contained a minority of Karaite Jews, whom the Nazis regarded as racially ambiguous. The Ukrainians and the Tatars had both suffered persecution under Stalin and their motive appeared to be hatred of Communism rather than belief in National Socialism. The Kosovo Albanians were likely motivated by the chance to exterminate Serbians. One year of Soviet occupation of Baltic countries at the beginning of the Second World War produced enough volunteers to form Estonian and Latvian SS formations.

So it’s core was always formed by volunteers. It was only changing names, re-forcing itself by conscripts, but it always remained a criminal Waffen SS formation. And it was not Estonian-whatever-SS legion excepted from condemnation, but single people who were forcibly drafted and in the same time commited no crimes.
rusak

August 8, 2007 at 5:01 am (UTC 0)

If Estonian was an apartheid state, Russians would need special passes to visit Estonian towns and wouldn’t be allowed to intermarry with Estonians. There’s only been one ‘apartheid’ state (apartheid is an Afrikaans word, afterall).

Let’s see what good ol’ Webster has to say about this:

Main Entry: apart·heid
Pronunciation: &-’pär-”tAt, -”tIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Afrikaans, from apart apart + -heid -hood
1 : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
2 : SEPARATION, SEGREGATION

Clearly, the word does not have to refer to the specific South African example. Oh no, rusak is right again.

Your measure of what makes an apartheid state is how many government positions are held by ethnic Russians?

Are you saying that in an apartheid state ethnic Russians would hold many government positions or what?

In Germany, 19 percent of the population is foreign born. Yet not one of Merkel’s 15 ministers is a minority.

Wrong again. One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.

In this year’s Riigikogu there are at least eight (out of 101) members that are ethnic Russians. 15 percent of citizens (in 2006) spoke Russian as their first language.

No, there aren’t. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers are not the same thing. There are 3 ethnic Russian names out of 101 in the Estonian parliament. If you think we are going to give this situation even the slightest hint of “approval” you must be out of your mind.

But here’s another case of inequality in Estonia. Estonia is 55 percent female, yet only 22 Riigikogu seats are held by women. I guess Estonia must not only be an apartheid state, but also a patriarchy where women are systematically denied representation. Wouldn’t you agree?

What kind of argumentation is this? It doesn’t refute what I said at all. The underrepresentation of women in government all of over the world must be considered in the context of thousands of years of human history. The situation with Russians in Estonia is not comparable and you know it.

It wasn’t exactly the government’s fault their police were assaulted with rocks and bottled for hours on end, resulting in broken limbs and various other injuries.

Yes it was the government’s fault. The government created and conducted the entire situation.

But look at how ridiculous this whole situation is. This is a statue we are talking about. The government moved a statue and it resulted in two nights of looting and untold injuries. That’s disturbing.

No, no, it’s not! It’s not just about a statue. This is what you either don’t understand or do understand but don’t want to admit. It’s not about some statue, it’s about what the statue came to represent. The statue basically came to symbolize the situation of the Russian minority in Estonia. They didn’t destroy the statue, just like they can’t physically destroy the Russian minority. So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind. The Russian minority was already “disaffected” before this whole episode occurred. Once again the Estonian government chose to completely disregard the thoughts and feelings of the Russian minority. Actually, the Est nationalists pushed this through specifically to offend the Russian minority, to say something like “We’re in charge here, and you ain’t shit!” Then they want to act surprised about what happened. In reality, you disregard and disrespect 30% of the population at your peril, that shouldn’t have to be explained.

Wrong. History is full of terrible things. The reason they had to move it — and failed quite miserably to make clear — is that there were 13 people buried under a sidewalk in a place where nationalists of all varieties came to stir up society.

Since they moved it, nobody has vandalized the Bronze Soldier. Had it stayed there, people would still be dumping red paint on it every fortnight.

They didn’t have to move it. They could have moved the people buried under the sidewalk and left the statue. Why didn’t they go after the people dumping paint on it?

Estonia is part of the West.

In your dreams, pal.

So far all their plans have been carried out as previously announced. Idiotic politicking aside — the intention was always to move the whole thing to a military cemetery. What do you think they were going to do with the bodies? Dump them in the River Narva?

They made a point of emphasizing how “nice and dignified” the reburial/relocation was. Occupiers, bandits, marauders, rapists etc shouldn’t be buried like that. They did this crap to try to look like “good guys” for the West.

You are the only one making such demands, Rusak. There is no political party in Estonia saying, ‘hey, can’t we have the finance ministry?’

So far there hasn’t been an Ida-Virumaa bloc emerging in Estonian politics, maybe only through Keskerakond. I not sure though that if they won the election they might consider affirmative action for Estonian minsitries.

I am not suggesting affirmative action. A responsible state doesn’t need affirmative action for minorities to have representation in government. If the minorities are not openly considered second-class citizens, their “share” won’t be ignored.

Actually a good chunk of the rioters were ethnic Estonians. I think that everybody hated them after they went apeshit and looted stores, set cars on fire, and basically acted like assholes.

We were talking about the actions of the media here. The Estonian media immediately blamed the murder on “fellow looters” without any evidence. They tried to play it like “Uh-huh, you see, these moronic drunken Russian looters killed one of their own in a frenzy of looting. Meanwhile, we the Good Ests kindly moved the statue to a better place, is all…” They used the murder of Ganin to really try to make the rioters look like the scum of the earth. If as they claimed, Ganin was killed by “fellow looters” then of course it really does make the rioters look very bad. If, however, Ganin was killed by a group of Ests, that radically changes the complexion of things – maybe the Good Ests aren’t quite as Good as they’d like to claim they are, maybe a lot of things they claim aren’t really true. And during all this, the Estonian media was sounding its indignation at the Russian media for claiming that Ganin was killed by Estonian police.

I am glad I wasn’t living in Tallinn at the time. If my little kids were woken up by the sound of marauding drunken youth chanting ‘CCCP Forever’ and throwing rocks I would have been extremely pissed off. I am impressed with the extent that the Estonian police (many of them also ethnic Russians) held their cool. If that had happened in Los Angeles (as it did in 1992) things would have gone down far worse.

Yeah, I’m sure all those Russian scoundrels would be terrified of you there, tough guy.
TErr

August 8, 2007 at 5:05 am (UTC 0)

And the last thing that crossed my mind.

If you are talking about a draft, organized by Est. gov. to german army, it means that de-facto Estonia took the side of Germany, and was it’s ally.
Ray D. Noper

August 8, 2007 at 6:06 am (UTC 0)

You see, cabrero, Estonia was occupied almost all WW2. Estonian government couldn’t organize a draft, basically the Estonian government had already gone to exile… Estonian official stance wast to stay neutral, which in reality was unsuccessful – aggressors, who had previously made pact and divided Europe between them, went to war with each other; Estonia was left between Scylla and Charybdis… Between hammer and hammer – both sides were on the quest of world domination.

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