Europe.view
Stirring the pot
From Economist.com
Geology not ethnography is the problem
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“ETHNOGRAPHICALLY, it’s ours.” This was one of the most dismal phrases of the early 1990s, as countries freed by the cold war’s end explored their buried history and geography. Sometimes it made tragic if impractical sense. Nationalistic Finns (previously thought to be an extinct species) explained the legal case for recovering Karelia from Russia. Hungarians gloomily analysed the borders drawn by the Treaty of Trianon. Poles insisted that at least half of Belarus was really theirs, while Belarusians laid confident claim to all the lands of the ancient Grand Duchy, stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
Estonians and Latvians mourned slivers of lost territories (while not actually wanting them back: they are now mostly Russian-populated). Lithuanians hurriedly changed the subject: it was the Soviet occupation that returned their capital, Vilnius, from Poland and their seaport, Klaipeda, from Germany. Ukrainians explained that Kievan Rus had nothing to do with Russia, while Russians asked, reasonably, how Nash Krim (our Crimea) had ended up in Ukraine thanks to a Kremlin pen-stroke three decades previously. The Crimean Tatars pointed out (with even greater justice) that the balmy peninsular was theirs long before it was Russia’s.
For all the sentiment and heartbreak, the arguments were dangerous, even lethal, as Yugoslavia’s tragic disintegration proved. Some never stopped their poisonous bubbling. Is Kosovo “ethnographically” Albanian because of its recent past (recent in this context meaning a century’s worth of history), or Serbian because of its role in the Middle Ages?
But the great unsung triumphs of the 1990s were the conflicts that did not happen; these dwarfed the few that did. The desire to look respectable to outsiders trumped the desire to swagger in front of voters. Hungary and Romania buried the hatchet. The Czechs and Slovaks never quarrelled seriously about the divided villages on their (previously unimportant) border. Lithuanians and Poles became best friends. Germans digested the “new federal states” released by the collapse of the Soviet-occupied German Democratic Republic and stopped hankering after Silesia and Königsberg. The new rule was that nobody with historical quarrels outstanding could join the European Union or NATO. And it has worked marvellously.
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A rabble-rouser in Moscow |
But nothing is more dangerous to a great achievement than complacency. As EU expansion stalls and its willpower weakens, old squabbles are returning. Romania should be best friends with Moldova. Instead the two countries (or at least their presidents) have been indulging in a pointless game of historical tit-for-tat. There are low-level rows between Croatia and Slovenia, and between Bulgaria and Macedonia.
Russia has already shown it can stir things up in Estonia—this spring it encouraged a riot over a war memorial in Tallinn. In Ukraine, Crimea could be an even nastier mess: it has Russian nationalists plus a Kremlin naval base and increasingly cross Muslims (Tatars, whose patience has got them nowhere) including a small but ominous Islamist presence. Even if Ukraine had a strong and sensible government, the situation would be tricky. And amid the current mess in national politics, a smouldering problem could blaze up (or be stoked) all too quickly.
Certainly no one should rely on the Kremlin wanting to behave nicely, as it mostly did in the Yeltsin era. Russia’s new submarine expedition to claim the North Pole (or at least a chunk of territory the size of western Europe running up to it) is a clear sign of a newly assertive foreign policy. Countries such as Canada and Denmark (which handles foreign affairs for the 50,000 inhabitants of Greenland) are scrambling to protect their interests. Thankfully, this row is about geology, not ethnography, and affects more polar bears than people. But the same approach applied elsewhere could be incendiary.
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126 comments
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 6:19 am (UTC 0)
Clearly, the word does not have to refer to the specific South African example. Oh no, rusak is right again.
There’s only been one apartheid state, Rusak.
One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.
All were born in Germany, unlike 19 percent of the population. A clear sign of nativist discrimination.
No, there aren’t. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers are not the same thing. There are 3 ethnic Russian names out of 101 in the Estonian parliament.
Eldar Efendijev, Igor Gräzin, Valeri Korb, Aleksei Lotman, Inara Luigas, Tatjana Muravjova, Nelli Privalova, Olga Sõtnik, Vladimir Velman.
Like I said, Estonian is a nationality, not an ethncity. It’s hard to tell who is what. My wife, technically also has Russian blood. Her great-grandfather was from Vjatka. Thankfully, Estonia’s apartheid rules have not excluded him and his descendents from gaining citizenship as they were citizens in 1940.
If you think we are going to give this situation even the slightest hint of “approval” you must be out of your mind.
Who do you claim to represent? Are you a politician? You only represent yourself.
The situation with Russians in Estonia is not comparable and you know it.
Yes, they’ve had even less time to build up enough power to gain a proportion of representation in relation to their numbers.
The statue basically came to symbolize the situation of the Russian minority in Estonia.
Nobody in the government said that. That’s your interpretation.
They didn’t destroy the statue, just like they can’t physically destroy the Russian minority. So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind.
That soldier was actually modeled on an Estonian. My interpretation is that it was a classic battle over public space. There are more Estonians now in Tallinn, and so that situation came to a head over a statue in a prominent square.
Would you have a statue to the army that abetted the NKVD officers that shot your prime minister in the back of the head? Next to the national library? No you wouldn’t. Denmark wouldn’t. Norway wouldn’t. Finland certainly wouldn’t. No Northern European country would legitimize a foreign military occupation that way.
Unfortunately it played out the way it did, but then again, the statue is in one piece and it is next to other Estonian war memorials in a military cemetery.
In fact, I don’t seem to recall any other big war memorials in Tallinn. I guess we aren’t that militaristic of a country.
In reality, you disregard and disrespect 30% of the population at your peril, that shouldn’t have to be explained.
I don’t disrespect anybody, nor do the clerks who answer all questions in Russian to Russian patrons in my town, where Russians are only 15 percent of the population.
There’s more than one party in the Estonian government and not everybody agrees with what the government does.
But we do have a democracy and the ability to be flexible when need be.
If this was truly the huge mistake you say it is, then Andrus Ansip’s government might not last as long as he wants.
His party, though, currently has a 43 percent approval rating, 20 points ahead of any other party. If I was running your country, I might try and foster a debate over its future. I disagree with the idea that there’s no real democratic discourse in Russia, but there is obviously little I can do.
They didn’t have to move it. They could have moved the people buried under the sidewalk and left the statue. Why didn’t they go after the people dumping paint on it?
Who cares? I really don’t care. I walked past that, let’s face it, anachronism of a statue almost everyday and never noticed it. The government moved a statue. That’s what it means to me. World War II ended 62 years ago. It’s over. I honestly don’t think about it that much for it matters preciously little in my day-to-day life.
The map of Europe today looks most like the one of 1920. It seems that the ‘peace’ of 1945 was never built to last.
In your dreams, pal.
Estonia is part of the West.
They made a point of emphasizing how “nice and dignified” the reburial/relocation was.
They’re politicians.
Occupiers, bandits, marauders, rapists etc shouldn’t be buried like that. They did this crap to try to look like “good guys” for the West.
Estonia is part of the West. Even during the 200 years of tsarist rule, the language of commerce and education was German. The church was evangelical Lutheran. Just because you don’t like Estonia, doesn’t mean that it isn’t part of Europe.
Estonians have handled things better than, say, the Irish in Northern Ireland. That’s another post-colonial situation right there that’s had far less pretty results.
If, however, Ganin was killed by a group of Ests, that radically changes the complexion of things – maybe the Good Ests aren’t quite as Good as they’d like to claim they are, maybe a lot of things they claim aren’t really true.
They haven’t caught the killers. Isn’t it weird how hard it is to catch murderers these days? Politkovskaja, Litvinenko. No justice. It’s a sad world.
Yeah, I’m sure all those Russian scoundrels would be terrified of you there, tough guy.
They’re idiots. I live here too. And look, they are getting off with fines and a slap on the wrist for robbing stores and making off with designer jeans.
Beyond all these feelings of victimization are the fact that we are adults and individuals and there are ways to voice ones disapproval and ways to be a total asshole. They chose the latter, undermining any political influence the riots could have had.
I know this was a nice moment to indulge oneself in the “Estonians are fascists” moment and chant the word like it means something, especially when Russia deports Georgian school children based on nationality.
But Estonia was founded in 1918 and it is managed to scrape by all these years, even in exile. It’s a shame that Estonia was under foreign military occupation for 50 years, but I am quite glad that the country is part of the nordic economy. Tallinn certainly looks much better today than it did in 1991, broken windows or not.
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 6:28 am (UTC 0)
Estonian government couldn’t organize a draft, basically the Estonian government had already gone to exile… Estonian official stance wast to stay neutral, which in reality was unsuccessful
We have to see it from a human angle. All pre-war heads of state were systematically exterminated between 1940 and 1941. The officers class was executed. Parliamentary members were deported or killed.
Estonia is a small country. To the surviving members of the Estonian government that saw all their friends and relatives — you know how everyone here is related one way or another — murdered, the German occupation must have felt like a reprieve from the executioner’s block.
So they operated ‘under the radar’ rather than openly challenging the occupation. They attempted to renegotiate their independence, and failed. And just as the Soviets had their puppets like Vares-Barbarus, the Germans had their puppets like Hjalmar Mae.
It’s a gross, regrettable situation to be in.
Tiamsuu
August 8, 2007 at 7:35 am (UTC 0)
Estonian government didn’t ‘order a draft’, but instead – with sovok forces closing in – the exile government reccommended the young estonians ‘not to resist drafting’.
I do believe that the fact of estonians joining up en masse [i]in the face of impending soviet invasion[/i] quite aptly demonstrates the reason why they joined up.
So?
August 8, 2007 at 7:42 am (UTC 0)
I do believe that the fact of estonians joining up en masse [i]in the face of impending soviet invasion[/i] quite aptly demonstrates the reason why they joined up.
Nazi sympathizers?
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 9:07 am (UTC 0)
Nazi sympathizers?
No, memories of June Deportations in 1941.
Which raises an interesting question:
Soviet Union also deported >400 Jews from Estonia. Another secret deal with Third Reich ?
Now, some of you tell, that it was about eliminating “resisting elements”… About 75% of those departed were women and children.
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 9:10 am (UTC 0)
Oh, and this wasn’t an irrational, ‘russophobic’ fear – 1949 proved that… No reason for “removing resisting elements” then – war was over already…
Well, I have nothing against Russians, but the gene left by Tatar-Mongol rapings in some of them…
So?
August 8, 2007 at 9:13 am (UTC 0)
Someone had to defend Europe from the Red Horde. Their sacrafice was not in vain.
So?
August 8, 2007 at 9:34 am (UTC 0)
Dear ray d. noper,
Well, I have nothing against Russians, but the gene left by Tatar-Mongol rapings in some of them…
Totally true. Proof is in the picture of the fist-waving knuckle-dragger in the story. Let’s face it, there is nothing remotely European about these finno-ugric mongoloids who speak bastardized Polish written in barbarian glyphs (no-one else uses their stupid alphabet, BTW), and stole Ukrainian history.
Alas, these doppelgangers are of no threat to the West anymore. They may squirm and sometimes sting, but with the new corridor sanitaire noose growing ever tighter around russkieland, they provide mere amusement. The Tolkien parallel is striking. The russkies are schemeing in Eastern Europe, but the Balts and the Poles are like the brave little Hobbits. They shall use their power of lycanthropy to penetrate Putin’s spy ring and destroy it from within!
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 10:19 am (UTC 0)
They shall use their power of lycanthropy to penetrate Putin’s spy ring and destroy it from within!
Good god, I want some of what this guy must be smoking !
Anyway, the jokefest is over, sorry, you lost. Better luck next time.
Still, you are right somewhat – Estonian army had already fought with “Red Horde” (your words not mine), and won, by the way. They knew what to expect.
Also, I still think Estonia has to apologize to Russians – in 1920, Estonia had the opportunity to support White Guard who were about to take Petrograd (and hopefully execute Bolsheviks residing there), but Estonia decided for peace treaty instead, some whiteguardians were angry for that as of 1970s… As an Estonian: sorry, guys. It could have been easier for all of us.
So?
August 8, 2007 at 10:42 am (UTC 0)
You know the FSB have those nashyists flooding the net. I dunno “ray d. noper” sounds kinda fishy. Are you a russkie or something?
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 10:53 am (UTC 0)
I am pretty confused. What does ‘russkie’ mean ?
My mother was born in Magadan and my father’s father was born somewhere near Omsk. Neither was Russian by ethnicity, nor am I.
Now, sovietophiles, one thing interests me: please explain, why did Russia recently deport Georgians ? Why deny foreigners from markets ? Sounds like something a fascist state would do…
So?
August 8, 2007 at 11:29 am (UTC 0)
Dear “ray d. noper”,
I visited your blog. Some gibberish I could not read, but no barbarian glyphs, thank god. Must be some kind of Baltic tongue. So I gather you were conceived in barbarian captivity. Very well. I have no quarrel with you (but I AM WARNING YOU, IF YOU’RE LYING, I DID NOT STUDY NINJITSU FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS FOR NOTHING YOU KNOW!). Alrighty, I’ll just hop over to larussophobe. Maybe she’s got something good today, like a plane crash, or the latest TB statistics.
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 1:19 pm (UTC 0)
Must be some kind of Baltic tongue.
Actually it’s Finnic, like Finnish, Karelian, and Sami.
Baltic tongues are Latvian and Lithuanian and (the extinct) Prussian.
Jens-Olaf
August 8, 2007 at 1:36 pm (UTC 0)
Rusak said:
One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.
All of them are Germans and not member of any minority. Offical minorites in Germany are only the Danes and the Sorbians. There was a quarrel about the special minority right for the Danish party in Schleswig-Holstein. This party did not need the 5% hurdle to be elected into parliament.
The third generation of Turkish, a few million, with turkish descendance became not German automatically until recently. And they have no own minority rights. No own schools for them like for Danes for example.
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 1:37 pm (UTC 0)
Another question:
Why is the governor of Mari El Republic a ethnic Russian when more than half of populations are Maris ?
Also, Mordovia has little to none Mordvin names in administration (Mordvin concertration about the same as Russian concentration in Estonia) ?
It is anyway mighty strange, that noone has answered the Georgian question yet… Waiting for official statement about all questioners being nazis and so on ?
Oh, and again, sorry guys about signing Tartu peace so early. Soviet Union was the worst thing that could happen to Russia…
Jens-Olaf
August 8, 2007 at 1:48 pm (UTC 0)
Rusak said:
‘So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind.’
It is one of the main military cemeterys of Estonia and its military units. The Bronze Soldier is placed in the center now. Among other buried Soviet soldiers.
One of the Estonian Kaitseliit commanders has his grave about 50m away.
So?
August 8, 2007 at 2:03 pm (UTC 0)
Ah, I’m back from catching up on La Russophobe. Sadly no unairworthy Tupolevski plane crashes today. But an excellent expose of that ultimate sell-out, Russkie nationalist and false dissident Solzhenitsyn. Now, to the Georgian question.
You see, Georgians are a small proud people. The russkies hate their freedom. Furthermore, since the dawn of time (antiquity) the barbarians to the north would lead campaigns of extermination of the proud Georgian people. This has created certain evolutionary pressures on the Georgian male. Only a certain hyper-virile type would have any chance of repopulating their motherland after another devastating raid. So you see, the hairless Russkies hate the macho hirsute Georgians with their allegedly very large genitalia (I don’t believe it). Just compare the alpha male head of Georgian state to that karelian pelmeni-munching squirt Putin (the Russkies even stole their national dish from the asiatics). The mongol-descendant drunkards cannot stand the fact that for a hairy, muscular Georgian man the favourite thing is not vodka + pel’meni + synthesiser pop music, but singing folk songs, drinking good wine with his mates, and traditional (naked) wrestling at the drop of a hat (oil up first)
Jens-Olaf
August 8, 2007 at 2:06 pm (UTC 0)
And I should add though I have written it somewhere else already. The first widow I’ve met on the military cemetary where the Bronze statue was moved was an Estonian woman. Her husband had served in the Soviet Army. She said it’s a better place where she can relief and mourn, not like in the center it was before.
TErr
August 8, 2007 at 2:23 pm (UTC 0)
I guess we are clear about Estonian SS legion?
I guess you agree, that according to Nurnberg protocol definitions all who volunteerly joined SS Estonian legion or those who were drafted but, still, commited crimes are war criminals?
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 2:35 pm (UTC 0)
cabrero,
I never argued. My only point was, that by the Nuremberg protocols, drafted SS soldiers (Baltic legions specifically pointed out) were not automatically war criminals. There were not so few of them – basically the “volunteer legion” was the choice between “volunteering” and being “deserter”, that was acknowledged by the international court.
So, if you also acknowledge it, we come to the point, that
* they were drafted,
* ergo they weren’t nazis
* ergo they weren’t war criminals
* ergo honoring them does not make people nazi symphatizers.
I won’t deny that there a few nazi sympatizers in Estonia, just as they are in almost every country… But it takes a little more than honoring a simple guy who had choice of being dead and being, well, dead, and who, against his own choice, died. What does it matter which aggressor provided his uniform and equipment ?
AndresS
August 8, 2007 at 3:01 pm (UTC 0)
2 cabrero:
I’m clear about the 20th, you don’t appear to be.
The US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the there were some bad things done by some members of the Estonian Legion but there were not in the same league as most of the SS, they did not subscribe to the Nazi ideology. When Estonia honors members of the 20th legion they do so the same way Russia honors members of the Red Army, which also committed atrocities during WW2.
So?
August 8, 2007 at 3:07 pm (UTC 0)
Ain’t no such thing as a war-crime against a commie. Better dead than red. Hail the Baltic Waffen SS for their struggle for the Western civilization against the Red Horde!
TErr
August 8, 2007 at 3:58 pm (UTC 0)
2 Ray D
Yes I agree with you. But how can the persons, matching your criterias, can be freedom or whatever fighters if they didn’t even want to fight and were drafted forcibly? However thats not the issue.
What I blame your government for is that it never condemned Estonian SS legion as a criminal part of SS, never attempted to distinct criminals from non-criminals. It praises ex SS-servicemen only by the criteria of fighting against bolshevism and ignoring whatever crimes this persons were responsible for.
2 Andres
I disagree with you because the desicions of US-whatever comission have no exterritorial power. Neither they can surpass definitions made by Nurnberg trial which clearly stated:
“Трибунал включил в СС членов “Ваффен-СС” и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что “невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности”. Отдельно Трибунал “отметил” деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что “дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…”
This paradox is mainly for lawyers. However I think that US desicion was politicaly motivated for it was a Col War period. They had to choose: turn the surrendered persons to SU or not. The second could not be an option.
And you are wrong saying that were somewhat different from the rest of SS. According to the SS code all the memebers had to share ideology. Estonian SS legion actively participated in war crimes and along with other “national” legions gained fame of extreme cruelty towards POW and civillians. And this were not “Some” bad things, there was a lot. They were involved in “punishment” (карательные) operations in Belorussia, Russia, Poland and Ukraine burning villages, slaughtering people.
Сразу же после немецкой оккупации территории ЭССР там начались массовые убийства гражданского населения, особенно русских и евреев. Бригаденфюрер СС В.Шталекер докладывал 25 октября 1941 г. руководителю РСХА Р.Гейдриху: “В Эстонии благодаря сравнительно небольшому количеству евреев не представлялось возможным провоцировать погромы… Большая часть тех 4500 евреев, которые жили в Эстонии в начале наступления на Востоке, бежала вместе с отступающими войсками Красной Армии. Осталось около 2000 человек. В одном Таллине жило около 1000 евреев. Арест всех евреев мужского пола в возрасте старше 16 лет был почти закончен. Все они были казнены “частями самообороны” под руководством “айнзатцкомманды 1А”. (Мартинсон Э. Слуги свастики. Таллин, 1962 г., с.74).
26-29 сентября 1941 г. эстонские “силы самообороны” уничтожили 440 арестованных ими евреев (по другим данным – 474). (Hilberg R. Tater, Opfer, Zuschauer. Die Vernichtung der Juden 1933-145. Frankfurt/ Main. 1992. s.115). Имущество казненных частично передавалось немцами в распоряжение “сил самообороны”.
Помимо евреев эстонская полиция и “силы самообороны” ликвидировали сторонников советской власти (к которым зачастую причислялись все русские жители некоторых городов и сел), эстонцев – членов левых организаций (в т.ч. социал-демократов), а также тех крестьян, кто получил землю в результате аграрных реформ в Эстонии в 20-е годы и в 1940 г. (т.н. новоземельцы). После занятия вермахтом Тарту летом-осенью 1941 г. в противотанковом рву под городом (в населенном пункте Лемматси) отрядами “Омакайтсе” было убито более 12 тысяч мирных жителей и советских военнопленных.
После захвата немецко-фашисткими войсками Таллина эстонская политическая полиция к 19 декабря 1941 г. арестовала только в столице Эстонии и ее окрестностях 4365 человек. Узников Таллинской тюрьмы расстреливали по спискам, которые утверждал начальник политической полиции Э.Викс, заслуживший прозвище “эстонского Эйхмана” (до 1940 г. он был комиссаром полити-ческой полиции Эстонии в Куресааре). Так, например, 74-летняя эстонка Мийна Куузик была расстреляна в декабре 1941 г. по следующему обвинению: “Мийна Куузик – эстонка, была сторонницей советского государственного порядка, полагала, что она с удовольствием сделала бы что-нибудь хорошее в пользу Советского Союза, если бы не была столь стара”.
В октябре 1942 г. списком были расстреляны как “неполноценный расовый элемент” 243 цыгана, содержавшихся в концлагере Харку. Э.Викс с гордостью докладывал М.Зандбергеру, что только 16 апреля 1942 г. из Центральной Таллинской тюрьмы было вывезено на расстрел 67 человек.
После так называемой “конференции Ваннзее” в Берлине в январе 1942 г., на которой было принято решение о полном уничтожении евреев в Европе, в эстонской политической полиции по образцу гестапо был образован специальный отдел Б-IV под руководством Ю.Эннока, занимавшийся “окончательным решением еврейского вопроса”, что привело к тому, что уже в феврале 1942 г. В.Шталекер рапортовал в Берлин о выполнении задачи.
После решения “еврейского вопроса” в Эстонии эстонские полицейские части принимали участие в ликвидации евреев, привозимых в страну из стран Европы, в основном из Чехии. Например, 5 сентября 1942 г. в местечко Каасику прибыл эшелон с 1000 евреев из гетто Терезиенштадт. Все они были расстреляны сотрудниками эстонской
политической полиции. Через неделю такая же судьба постигла и евреев, доставленных из Берлина.
Как отмечается в материалах Международной комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности под эгидой Президента Эстонии, эстонские полицейские также принимали непосредственное участие в сопровождении перевозимых из Вильнюса евреев в концентрационные лагеря в Эстонии, охране аналогичных лагерей в Вайваре, Тарту, Ягала, Таллине, лагерей для советских военнопленных, в которых совершались многочисленные казни заключенных, охране перевалочного лагеря для евреев в Избике (Польша), где было умерщвлено значительное количество евреев, а также еврейских гетто в Лодзи, Пшемышле, Жешуве и Тарнополе.
В 1943-1944 гг. в концлагерь Клоога (охрану которого нес 287-й эстонский полицейский батальон) были доставлены несколько тысяч евреев из гетто Каунаса, Вильнюса, концлагеря Саласпилс в Латвии и Трансильвании, которых впоследствии использовали на торфоразработках. Когда в сентябре 1944 г. части Красной Армии неожиданно для вермахта прорвались почти к самому лагерю, эстонские полицейские, как отмечается в отчете Международной комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности при Президенте Эстонии, принимали непосредственное участие в расстреле 2000 узников. Буквально за несколько дней до освобождения Таллина под руководством Э.Викса было расстреляно около тысячи узников Центральной тюрьмы.
Что касается эстонских регулярных частей для участия в военных действиях на стороне гитлеровской Германии, то начало их формированию было положено 25 августа 1941 г., когда в соответствии с приказом командующего группой армий “Север” генерал-фельдмаршала фон Лееба было разрешено принимать прибалтов на службу в вермахт и создавать из них особые команды и добровольческие батальоны для антипартизанской борьбы. (Hoffman J. Die Ostlegionen 1941-1943. Freiburg, 1976, s.18-19). В этой связи командующим 18-й армией генерал-полковником Кюхлером из разрозненных отрядов “Омакайтсе” на добровольной основе (с заключением контракта на 1 год) было сформировано 6 эстонских охранных отрядов (№№181-186). В конце того же года все шесть подразделений были переформированы в три восточных батальона (№№645, 659 и 660-й) и одну восточную роту (№657-я).
В дополнение к вышеназванным частям для охранной службы и борьбы с партизанским движением в тылу группы армий “Север” с сентября 1941 г. немецкое командование начало формирование эстонских батальонов вспомогательной полиции (“шума”). Всего за время войны в Эстонии было сформировано 26 батальонов “шума”, получивших номера с 29-го по 45-й, 50-й и с 286-го по 293-й. В отличие от аналогичных частей на территории Украины и Белоруссии, в которых весь командный состав состоял из немцев, в эстонских полицейских батальонах, укомплектованных национальными кадрами, был только один немецкий офицер-наблюдатель. Показателем особого доверия немцев к эстонским полицейским батальонам было и то обстоятельство, что там были введены воинские звания вермахта. На 1 октября 1942 г. все полицейские силы Эстонии составляли 10,4 тысяч человек, к которым был прикомандирован 591 немец.
Полицейские и восточные батальоны использовались преимущественно для проведения карательных акций против гражданского населения, борьбы с партизанским движением и охраны концентрационных лагерей. Так, 36-й эстонский полицейский батальон принимал участие в массовом расстреле евреев в белорусском городе Новогрудки 7 августа 1942 г., что подтверждается материалами Центра Симона Визенталя (Зурофф: эстонцы участвовали в казнях евреев // BNS/Interfax, 2002 г., 7 августа) и выводами по данной теме действующей под эгидой Президента Эстонии международной Комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности (Зурофф рекомендует Пихлю уйти в отставку // BNS// Interfax, 2002 г., 25 июля), а также нес охрану лагерей военнопленных, работавших на угольных шахтах Сталино и Макеевка. В Псковской области против партизанского движения боролись 37-й и 40-й батальоны, аналогичные задачи в районе Луга-Псков-Гдов выполнял 38-й батальон. 286-й батальон участвовал в карательных операциях в Восточной Пруссии и Белоруссии. 288-й батальон применялся для ликвидации т.н. “Партизанской республики Ронсона”. Eesti vabadusvoitlejad Teises maailmasjas // Koostja A.Jurs – Tallinn, 1997. р. 146-155 (Эстонские борцы за свободу во Второй мировой войне) // сост. А.Юрс 658-й восточный батальон под командованием А.Ребане проводил карательные операции против мирного населения в районе г. Кингисепп и дер. Керстово (Ленинградская область), совершал зверские уби
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 4:45 pm (UTC 0)
What I blame your government for is that it never condemned Estonian SS legion as a criminal part of SS, never attempted to distinct criminals from non-criminals.
I think that the Soviets did a pretty good job of taking care of Estonian war criminals in the 1950s and 1960s.
I am not too fond of this SS fixation either. I can only guess it is because they are dying out, like the Red Army vets, everyday, so there is renewed interest in the conflicts of their youth.
Estonia’s greatest heroes remain the gents of 1918, like this Estonian fellow, who Rusak will notice lacks an ethnic Estonian name:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Kuperjanov
AndresS
August 8, 2007 at 4:51 pm (UTC 0)
So there was a lot of bastards…
Agreed.
TErr
August 8, 2007 at 5:08 pm (UTC 0)
So I guess that I somehow showed you that our gov. disagreement with estonian official gestures towards conmemoration of SS veterans has a very serious and justified basis.
And in order to step to the occupation issue I would like to know what Estonia existed in 1944 – succesor of the first Estonian republic, some other, second, Estonia or a newly annexed part of German territory?
And what Estonia appeared in 1991 – succesor of the first, 1918, Estonia, succesor of 1944 second Estonia, or some third, “new”, Estonia?
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 5:29 pm (UTC 0)
And in order to step to the occupation issue I would like to know what Estonia existed in 1944 – succesor of the first Estonian republic, some other, second, Estonia or a newly annexed part of German territory?
Estonia was occupied Nazi territory for most of 1944. The republic briefly operated in September but then was reoccupied by the Soviets as they chased the Nazis to Berlin (and grabbed land along the way).
Estonia today is the same country that was founded in 1918. Same flag, sam ecoat of arms, same national anthem.
It has diplomatic relations with most countries (including Russia) that go back to 1920. For example, this year is the 85 anniversary of relations with Iceland, the US, and a host of other countries that recognized Estonia in 1922, even before Britain became the first country to recognize the USSR in 1924.
AndresS
August 8, 2007 at 5:52 pm (UTC 0)
The Republic of Estonia established in 1918 never ceased to exist and continues to this day.
There’s a great law review about this issue in the Nordic Law Review (Nordic!):
http://www.springerlink.com/content/3e5hl9ux79vj213x/
I’d send you my copy to read but I only have 1 and worry I might not get it back.
Giustino
August 8, 2007 at 8:18 pm (UTC 0)
Andres,
I think you just earned yourself a Marjamaa cross.
Ray D. Noper
August 8, 2007 at 9:33 pm (UTC 0)
cabrero, do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?
So far it’s on par with “but you are burning negroes”…
But still, bolshevism was worth fighting for… After all, bolsheviks and nazis had divided the European sovereign states to the “spheres of power”… Sovereign states, that, as people have shown you here before, existed even before Soviet Union was created or recognized…
TErr
August 9, 2007 at 3:55 am (UTC 0)
do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?
- And you? Whatever information you can get it is mainly the Soviet archives left on Estonian territory. So, you can either accept it as true or reject it as false.
rusak
August 9, 2007 at 5:00 am (UTC 0)
There’s only been one apartheid state, Rusak.
The level of discrimination in Estonia amounts to apartheid, it might as well be apartheid.
All were born in Germany, unlike 19 percent of the population. A clear sign of nativist discrimination.
Wrong again. The 19% figure is for immigrants AND their descendants, AND many of these immigrants were ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe. 91% of Germany’s population is ethnic German according to the last census.
Like I said, Estonian is a nationality, not an ethncity.
What the hell is this? You said “ethnic Russians” – now you’re talking about something else.
Who do you claim to represent? Are you a politician? You only represent yourself.
In other words one has to be a politician to represent anyone? No, I’m not a politician, but I represent a lot more people than all the Krishtafoviches in the world put together.
Yes, they’ve had even less time to build up enough power to gain a proportion of representation in relation to their numbers.
“Time to build up power”? They wouldn’t have to build up anything if it wasn’t for the discriminatory policies that started about 15 years ago in the first place.
Nobody in the government said that. That’s your interpretation.
What difference does it make if nobody in the government “said that”? Some things don’t have to be said like that. If blacks in the US get upset at something, they tend to think in terms of their history and the problems of their current situation as much, or rather more, than about the specifics of a particular case. Most people recognize this reality. If you’re a reasonable person you don’t need some clown to get up on a soapbox and explicitly state it for you. The LA riots were not about the person of Rodney King and the riots in Estonia were not about some hunk of bronze or even the bodies buried under it.
That soldier was actually modeled on an Estonian.
You think I didn’t know that?
My interpretation is that it was a classic battle over public space. There are more Estonians now in Tallinn, and so that situation came to a head over a statue in a prominent square.
First it was “they had to do it because…” –- now it’s this. Do you see how your position is dancing all over the place?
Would you have a statue to the army that abetted the NKVD officers that shot your prime minister in the back of the head? Next to the national library? No you wouldn’t. Denmark wouldn’t. Norway wouldn’t. Finland certainly wouldn’t. No Northern European country would legitimize a foreign military occupation that way.
They didn’t seem to mind it too much for 15 years. So when you bring up all this, my answer is that the Ests didn’t care until the nationalists made this an issue.
I don’t disrespect anybody, nor do the clerks who answer all questions in Russian to Russian patrons in my town, where Russians are only 15 percent of the population.
Don’t pretend you don’t know English. You see that I was talking about the Estonian government, then the next sentence says “you” – it obviously didn’t mean you, giustino.
If this was truly the huge mistake you say it is, then Andrus Ansip’s government might not last as long as he wants.
I think it was a mistake but the huge mistake is the background situation.
Who cares? I really don’t care.
You’re writing a lot of responses for someone who really doesn’t care. Ah, but you care about ol’ Eestimaa’s reputation, don’t you? Afraid that dastardly rusak will sully her good name, eh?
The map of Europe today looks most like the one of 1920.
Questionable at best, considering that Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were on the map in 1920.
Estonia is part of the West.
In your dreams.
They’re politicians.
Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.
Estonia is part of the West. Even during the 200 years of tsarist rule, the language of commerce and education was German. The church was evangelical Lutheran. Just because you don’t like Estonia, doesn’t mean that it isn’t part of Europe.
What does commerce and education have to do with the Ests? The Ests were slaves of the Germans for 600 years. It wasn’t their commerce and education. (And on a little side note, in 1897, ethnic Russians comprised 17% of the merchant class in Estlyandskaya guberniya and 18% in Liflyandskaya guberniya) The Ests got their own state in 1920 and it was independent for only about 20 years. Ah, but now they’re proud Europeans! The German language and Protestant religion don’t make the Ests any more “Westerners” than the English language and Protestant religion make the “African Americans” English.
They haven’t caught the killers. Isn’t it weird how hard it is to catch murderers these days? Politkovskaja, Litvinenko. No justice. It’s a sad world.
Do you have anything to say that is actually pertinent to the point that I was making? The way the Estonian media handled the situation, you have nothing to say about that, I guess.
Beyond all these feelings of victimization are the fact that we are adults and individuals and there are ways to voice ones disapproval and ways to be a total asshole. They chose the latter, undermining any political influence the riots could have had.
There are many ways to gain political influence. Violence worked in Northern Ireland, for example.
I know this was a nice moment to indulge oneself in the “Estonians are fascists” moment and chant the word like it means something, especially when Russia deports Georgian school children based on nationality.
Stop making things up. No Georgian school children were deported based on nationality. Several thousand illegal immigrants were deported.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 5:11 am (UTC 0)
I don’t understand why Etonians are so shy about their the fine SS history. They were defending the Western Civilization from the Red Horde. That is nothing to be ashamed of! You can call them Nazis, but so what? It’s just a word.
After all even the Americans realized after the war that they “killed the wrong pig”. Unfortunately, the red propaganda machine was in full swing by then, and the fine German people and their adjutants had already been slandered and villified. But many defnders of Europe were thankfully rehabilitated: Wernher von Braun, creator of the mighty V-1 and V2, who later made sure that the Nordic race is the first to the moon; Erich Von Manstein, destroyer of countless mongoloid bolshevik POWs, who went on to become de facto chief of staff of the Bundeswehr, are just two such outstanding individuals. There were many, many others. The Esstonian SS veterans should wear their insignia with pride! (God, I hate those russkiess so much!)
rusak
August 9, 2007 at 5:21 am (UTC 0)
Jens-Olaf,
All of them are Germans and not member of any minority. Offical minorites in Germany are only the Danes and the Sorbians.
What are “Germans”? The names are clearly not German, indicating foreign ancestry. If there were a couple of such “Estonians” in the cabinet of ministers, I think this would be a different discussion.
rusak
August 9, 2007 at 5:34 am (UTC 0)
Why is the governor of Mari El Republic a ethnic Russian when more than half of populations are Maris ?
Actually, the Russians are the largest group in Mariy-El. Try again.
Also, Mordovia has little to none Mordvin names in administration (Mordvin concertration about the same as Russian concentration in Estonia) ?
There are plenty of Mordvins in the administration of Mordovia, including the president. What do you know about Mordvin names? Mordvin names as far as I know are mostly pretty much the same as ethnic Russian names.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 5:58 am (UTC 0)
Dear rusak (what a name!),
I think that you should get it through your thick fur-hatted skull the follwing:
1) We (the noble people of the West) are liberal, creative indivuduals, free in ways that you can never be. We get great ideas like, all the time! Something not physcially possible for you. (For example, on antyx.net we are discussing the proper way to partition your wasteland). We drink coffee, chat with our friends online, take our kids to the mall, travel, crank out wicked HTML code on our Apple MacBook Pros.
2) You are mongoloid collectivist byzantian freedom-hating evil-doing savages tilling the earth for oil and diamonds in this age, some other crap in another age, but always with your Morlock heads bowing down.
By default, you are guilty unless proven innocent. The onus (hehe) of proof is always on YOU! The Economist is a very respectable newspaper – the only must-read source of news in this day and age. (It’s all I ever read.) What they write is the truth. YOU have to prove otherwise. First, you fetid barbarians must prove that you don’t eat your young, then we might listen to you.
Ray D. Noper
August 9, 2007 at 6:15 am (UTC 0)
cabrero,
it is symbolic that you wrote something rational and absolutely right, and then deleted it ? RSS, you know, remembers everything…
You said: “If he willingly shoots a single POW or a civillian, he is a criminal, no matter what was his initial reason”
Yes, that makes most of the Soviet enforcers (KGB, etc) criminals.
And yes, “One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country.”
Why the hell did you remove that post ? That was one thing that really made sense ?
Ray D. Noper
August 9, 2007 at 6:21 am (UTC 0)
rusak,
You are right, sorry, had flawed data . Still, I see little Maris in the government of Mari El ? There are more than 40% of them in Mari El Republic, arent there ?
And no, classic Mordvin names aren’t the same as ethnic Russian names, that’s like saying that Russian names are like Estonian names (which, interestingly, are somewhat true – lots of Russians have taken an Estonian name…)
Now, the question about Georgians…
Every stateless person in Estonia is by definition an illegal immigrant. They have never applied for Estonian citizenship. Estonian state wouldn’t deport them, why ?
Giustino
August 9, 2007 at 6:46 am (UTC 0)
The level of discrimination in Estonia amounts to apartheid, it might as well be apartheid.
That’s your opinion. One might consider a state that deports school children based on ethnicity to be a fascist state.
What the hell is this? You said “ethnic Russians” – now you’re talking about something else.
The lexicon does need to be tweaked. In this article, they call themselves Narva Venelased.
http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070808145831.8lupnwbe&cat;=null
Jevgeni Kriina, a 29-year-old student, commented: “I don’t like it when we speak about inhabitants of Estonia as Russians and Estonians.”
“Here in Narva we Russians have more in common with Estonians than with Russians in Russia.”
No, I’m not a politician, but I represent a lot more people than all the Krishtafoviches in the world put together.
Says the random guy on the Internet.
“Time to build up power”? They wouldn’t have to build up anything if it wasn’t for the discriminatory policies that started about 15 years ago in the first place.
Boy, you really are dense aren’t you. Estonia was founded in 1918. All of its political institutions evolved from the Estonian awakening and from the first period of independence.
Just because goose-stepping Red Army goons killed most of the Estonian political class and disbanded those institutions, doesn’t mean that they died.
Instead they remained underground. When the intelligent and wise Gorbachev decided that the Soviet system was unsustainable in the mid-80s, all those institutions came back.
Ever notice how most of Estonia’s most prominent politicians belong to a fraternity founded in Tartu in 1870.
So yeah, it will take a while for reative newcomers to penetrate these institutions and work their way to the top. It will happen though, and I look forward to it.
The LA riots were not about the person of Rodney King and the riots in Estonia were not about some hunk of bronze or even the bodies buried under it.
The LA Riots were about tensions between Los Angeles many ethnic communities — wealthy whites, poor blacks, and recent transplant Asians.
Ask yourself, did they solve anything? Did conditions for persons of African descent get better in LA after 1992? Or did the gates in Orange County just get higher?
First it was “they had to do it because…” –- now it’s this. Do you see how your position is dancing all over the place?
My position changes because I am a thinking individual, not some cardboard caricature of an evil Estonian nationalist. I mean I’m not even Estonian.
As I think over time new ideas come to mind, like the idea of a conflict over public space. That’s my interpretation, as relevant as yours, perhaps more so because I live here and you don’t.
They didn’t seem to mind it too much for 15 years. So when you bring up all this, my answer is that the Ests didn’t care until the nationalists made this an issue.
The Estonians started to care when they saw small children brought there with communist symbols on their clothing. No one has problems with old vets. I think that children were being brought into the mess made the choices a bit more stark.
Don’t pretend you don’t know English. You see that I was talking about the Estonian government, then the next sentence says “you” – it obviously didn’t mean you, giustino.
Ah, see in Estonian they have sina (personal) and teie (impersonal) for these distinctions. But since I am not a citizen of this country, and did not elect this government, they can hardly be called “my” government.
My government is led by George W. Bush. Need I say more?
Questionable at best, considering that Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were on the map in 1920.
It certainly doesn’t look like the map of 1945. And it doesn’t look like the map of 1914 either. What we’ve learned is that Brest Litovsk and Versailles are among the best ‘deals’ Europe has had in the past 100 years. They’ve proved to be the longest lasting.
Woodrow Wilson may have been nuts, but he was obviously nuts in a good way, at least some of the time. Perhaps he consumed some miracle absynthe during his time in Paris.
In your dreams.
You can bait me with the “Estonia is not the West” stuff, but don;t ask me, ask Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.
When asked about the ideal nordic model he replied:
Finland’s education, Estonia’s progressive tax policy, Denmark’s labour market, Iceland’s entrepreneurship, Sweden’s management of big companies and Norway’s oil.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7880173
Of course the opinion of Sweden doesn’t matter. You get to decide who is who.
Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.
I lean towards the Social Dems in Estonia. My wife voted for the Greens. Yet the Reform Party won the most votes and got to form the government.
I disagree with some of the things Reform has floated recently — like Justice Minister Rein Lang’s idea of using identity cards to register comments in forums so he can know who is saying what at what time and where they live.
But Reform was elected and they run the government. In my country, the Republicans won the congressional election in 2002 and presidential election in 2004. I don’t agree with their policies, but they won. What else can a citizen in a democracy do?
The Ests were slaves of the Germans for 600 years. It wasn’t their commerce and education.
Is Ireland part of the West, Comrade Rusak? The language (English) isn’t theirs. The religion (Roman Catholicism) isn’t theirs. They were slaves of English barons for many centuries. What right do they have to associate with the European Union and NATO? What right do the shanty Irish have to be considered Western?
Eamon De Valera, the first president of Ireland was born illegitimately to a house servant in New York. What right did he have to dare to take Ireland from the British ruling class?
There are many ways to gain political influence. Violence worked in Northern Ireland, for example.
So did Estonian victory over the Red Army in 1920.
Stop making things up. No Georgian school children were deported based on nationality. Several thousand illegal immigrants were deported.
All Georgians, all at the same time, some in Russia legally. As ‘punishment’ for Saakashvili not being your stooge. You guys are pathetic. And you wonder why all your neighbors hate you.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 6:53 am (UTC 0)
To be part of the West is to:
1) Be white.
2) Not be mongoloid russkie.
3) Speak an indo-european language.
4) Make significant contributions to western culture and civilization.
On all these counts Estonia qualifies. Ruskieland doesn’t, sorry.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 7:16 am (UTC 0)
Giustion,
Totally true about everyone hating europe’s bum cousin. Hating russkies is as easy and natural as breathing. Justification can come later, and there is so much to choose from!
Giustino
August 9, 2007 at 7:17 am (UTC 0)
Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.
I’d like to add that the decision to move said Bronze Soldier was put to a vote, one that several parties voted against.
One thing I found semi-hopeful was that most of the youths on the street that dared make a political statement (other than making off with free booze, jeans, and women’s hygienic products) rightly blamed Andrus AnSSip and not Estonia.
That’s because, unlike you, if you live in Russia, Estonia has a functional democracy where if you dislike the politician, you can *blame* him and write nasty graffiti on the wall and post unflattering YouTube videos about him.
It shows that democracy works when people blame the politician and not the process. As a state founded in 1918, Estonia has found that follow the laws — rather making decisions based on fear or emotion — are the best remedy for national challenges, even military occupation.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 7:21 am (UTC 0)
Giustino,
Once again, totally true. I’d like to see how the putinoids will explain Putin’s “emergency” third term next year. Looks like the casus is already brewing in South Caucus.
Jens-Olaf
August 9, 2007 at 11:31 am (UTC 0)
Rusak,
You are asking about Germans and minorities.
I try to keep it simple as possible. If you have a German passport you are German. Minority rights have only the Danes and Sorbians who are Germans. If you are Turkish with German passport you are German. If you are Turkish without German passport you are alien, or ‘Ausländer’, and then you are non EU citizens and though you are living your entire live in Germany, you have no right to cast your vote even in local elections. But your tax paying is appriciated.
TErr
August 9, 2007 at 1:47 pm (UTC 0)
Why the hell did you remove that post ? That was one thing that really made sense ?
For technical reasons, thought of adding smth else, hd no tome and left the txt on another PC.
Here you go…
“do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?”
- And you? Whatever documents you can have it is a Soviet heritage too.
Besides that the articles I point partly refer to german documents.
Fighting against bolshevism does not discard whatever war crimes a person commited. If a man volunteerly joins SS he is criminal. If he willingly shoots a single POW or a civillian, he is a criminal, no matter what was his initial reason for him being in SS.
One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country.
A country can not approve and praise what the rest of the world condemns and was fighting against.
When your authorities install a monument with a sodier in SS uniform, wearing SS insignia and decorations and put inscription: “in memory for anti-bolshevik fighters of SS legion” -it means that ALL of them are heroes, not just the “forcibly conscripted” and “war crime clear”.
If your gov. is so pissed off with bolshevism, couldn’t it install some symbolic monument with no signs of SS, saying smth. like “to all estonians who died fighting against bolshevism”??? No one would oppose that, Russia neither.
The “patriotic” Erna-game you have. What it was back in 1944? – A saboteur group fighting coalition troops, in this case soviet, under german plan and commanded by german officer. How is that presented – like fighting for Estonia. Thus your authorities question the results of WWII.
No, I dont’ care about smbd. privately playing a war-RPG, or old people gathering privately. But it has to remain private…
Sorry man, but I think it is sick. And the worse is that new generationn of estonians are growing up with a twisted concept of right and wrong.
BTW, we constantly blame Stalinism, honour its victims, build memorials in their honour all over the country and by no way praise NKVD or Stalin. Twice in 50′s and in 89 condemned stalinism and we keep doing that.
“Yes, that makes most of the Soviet enforcers (KGB, etc) criminals.
And yes, “One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country.” “
- not the most. Neither NKVD nor KGB were recognized as criminal organization. Volunteerly fulfilling a duty within their ranks does not make someone a criminal, different from SS. So the ratio of criminals there is the same as forcibly conscripted non-criminals in Estonian SS. Thoe we dont pose NKVD actions as heroic, recognizing its unhuman nature, neither we decorate, conmemorate or build monuments to its officers.
AndresS
August 9, 2007 at 1:57 pm (UTC 0)
When your authorities install a monument with a sodier in SS uniform, wearing SS insignia and decorations and put inscription: “in memory for anti-bolshevik fighters of SS legion” -it means that ALL of them are heroes, not just the “forcibly conscripted” and “war crime clear”..
Sorry, for my clarification, which monument are you referring too? I’m not aware of a monument that the Estonian Government erected that says this.
So?
August 9, 2007 at 1:59 pm (UTC 0)
Estonian SS men were heros. They were fighting for Europe’s freedom.
Giustino
August 9, 2007 at 2:00 pm (UTC 0)
A country can not approve and praise what the rest of the world condemns and was fighting against.
The USSR was an ally if Nazi Germany until 1941. Together they worked to occupy Poland in September 1939, starting the war.
How exactly did Molotov ‘fight against’ Nazi German expansion by signing a pact with them to divide up Europe? How could two armies that conquered Poland hold a joint march in Brest and not be allies?
All your memorials say 1941-1945. Yet the war in Europe started in 1939. And it was started by two countries — Nazi Germany and the USSR.
And the worse is that new generationn of estonians are growing up with a twisted concept of right and wrong.
Since I actually spend time among Estonian young people I can say that I notice no such trend. They are being raised with the simple message that it is important to defend ones country against foreign aggression.
Estonians who joined the Finnish army to keep the Soviets out of Finland are regarded as heroes in Estonia as they are in Finland.
Are there Estonians that think the SS is okay? Yes. Are there Russians that shave their heads and violently assault foreigners or caucasians in Moscow? You bet. Intolerance and racism are international problems that we should all work together to solve.
Ray D. Noper
August 9, 2007 at 2:04 pm (UTC 0)
cabrero,
“BTW, we constantly blame Stalinism, honour its victims, build memorials in their honour all over the country and by no way praise NKVD or Stalin. Twice in 50′s and in 89 condemned stalinism and we keep doing that.”
Yet you have president who is ex-KGB and who repeatedly celebrates the accomplishments of Dzerzhinsky, ChK, NKVD and KGB ?
The killing and deportations of civilians is acknowledged as war crime, in fact… Doesn’t that make KGB a criminal organization, also the members of that organization automatically war criminals ? Why is that morally different from SS ?
But back to the first topic – documents. I pointed you to the original Nuremberg protocols, can you do it too ? Can you show me the (internationally acknowledged) document that talks about Estonian war criminals ?
So?
August 9, 2007 at 2:06 pm (UTC 0)
Defense of one’s homeland is an honorable thing. That’s why every single Estonian male serves in the army. They are not draft-dodgers like the russkies.
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